Chaptersupport

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Chaptersupport

Gerion Entrup
Good day,

I have searched (eg [1], [2]), but did not find anything appropriate, so I want make a suggestion:
What do you think about chapter support in Musicbrainz?

Concretly I see three usecases, that are actually not possible:

1. Releases of audiobooks as one complete track. As far as I know, two usual formats exists for this files. The first are iPod m4b files. Technically this is a mp4-Container with AAC-Audio and a Chapterfile. You can buy it from the iTunes Store or create it [3], [4]. The second format are Audible-Audiobooks. Technically this is a proprietary container with mp3-Audio and a Chapterfile [5]. Maybe Audible-Files are not so high priority, because no Muxer exists for this files (a demuxer is just discussed as patch for FFmpeg/Libav). Also Matroska and some other formats support Chapters, but I don't know a (hardware) player or shop, that uses Matroska for audiobooks. If you have such a file and want to tag it with Musicbrainz/Picard, you will not be able to do this, because there is no support for chapters.

2. Releases of DJ-mixes. Often DJ-mixes contain a tracklist, e.g. [6], [7]. I see, that it is possible to link one or more recordings as relationship to a DJ-mix, but the cleaner solution, I think, are chapters. On the one hand you can define timestamps for chapters. On the other hand Picard (or another tagger) can write chapters directly into the files, so that a player can show the actual track directly.

3. Podcasts. I'm not sure, whether Musicbrainz want to be a database for podcasts, but podcasts often use chapters [8].

As a suggestion chapters could be realized as a table:

chapter
PK, FK : part of recording (NOT NULL)
PK     : number (NOT NULL)
       : timestamp (NOT NULL)
    FK : recording (the recording it is the mix or the audiobookchapter from)

I'm excited about your comments.
Best,
Gerion

[1] https://musicbrainz.org/doc/Terminology
[2] https://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Style/Specific_types_of_releases/Audiobook
[3] https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/audiobook-binder/id413969927?mt=12
[4] http://forum.doom9.org/archive/index.php/t-146944.html
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audible.com#Quality
[6] http://www.edmliveset.com/news/nature-one-2015-liveset-collection/
[7] https://musicbrainz.org/recording/8a0f2d89-628b-41b0-bef2-fad2e145e4d3
[8] http://podlove.org/simple-chapters/


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Re: Chaptersupport

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
Hi!

One thing to keep in mind is that we only do schema changes (which this would be, since it changes the database tables) twice per year, and we're skipping the next one - so the earliest this could be added is next May.

That said, supporting chapters (if doable in a way that doesn't make the UI even more confusing for casual users than it is now) sounds useful, so no reason not to discuss it :) Just making sure the time restrictions are clear to everyone.

On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 3:46 AM, Gerion Entrup <[hidden email]> wrote:
Good day,

I have searched (eg [1], [2]), but did not find anything appropriate, so I want make a suggestion:
What do you think about chapter support in Musicbrainz?

Concretly I see three usecases, that are actually not possible:

1. Releases of audiobooks as one complete track. As far as I know, two usual formats exists for this files. The first are iPod m4b files. Technically this is a mp4-Container with AAC-Audio and a Chapterfile. You can buy it from the iTunes Store or create it [3], [4]. The second format are Audible-Audiobooks. Technically this is a proprietary container with mp3-Audio and a Chapterfile [5]. Maybe Audible-Files are not so high priority, because no Muxer exists for this files (a demuxer is just discussed as patch for FFmpeg/Libav). Also Matroska and some other formats support Chapters, but I don't know a (hardware) player or shop, that uses Matroska for audiobooks. If you have such a file and want to tag it with Musicbrainz/Picard, you will not be able to do this, because there is no support for chapters.

2. Releases of DJ-mixes. Often DJ-mixes contain a tracklist, e.g. [6], [7]. I see, that it is possible to link one or more recordings as relationship to a DJ-mix, but the cleaner solution, I think, are chapters. On the one hand you can define timestamps for chapters. On the other hand Picard (or another tagger) can write chapters directly into the files, so that a player can show the actual track directly.

3. Podcasts. I'm not sure, whether Musicbrainz want to be a database for podcasts, but podcasts often use chapters [8].

As a suggestion chapters could be realized as a table:

chapter
PK, FK : part of recording (NOT NULL)
PK     : number (NOT NULL)
       : timestamp (NOT NULL)
    FK : recording (the recording it is the mix or the audiobookchapter from)

I'm excited about your comments.
Best,
Gerion

[1] https://musicbrainz.org/doc/Terminology
[2] https://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Style/Specific_types_of_releases/Audiobook
[3] https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/audiobook-binder/id413969927?mt=12
[4] http://forum.doom9.org/archive/index.php/t-146944.html
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audible.com#Quality
[6] http://www.edmliveset.com/news/nature-one-2015-liveset-collection/
[7] https://musicbrainz.org/recording/8a0f2d89-628b-41b0-bef2-fad2e145e4d3
[8] http://podlove.org/simple-chapters/


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Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren

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Re: Chaptersupport

Daniel Sobey
I have audio books, dj mixes and bootlegs where defining chapters would be useful.

Can we use pseudo releases as a possible solution?
I believe this was created for translations with the same number of tracks but I think we could stretch this to work for chapters.
What we could do is create a release with the one or more long recordings and then create another release that is of the type pseudo release that represents the chapter marks or the times of different songs in the performance.
This pseudo release you would define the chapters for audiobooks or the list of tracks in the recording.
You would then have a relationship from recording to medium in the pseudo release to say that this long recording is made up of these chapters.
It needs to on mediums to allow a recording has chapters defined in medium X of psudo release to allow for multiple files with chapters. 

This should not need any change to how the editor works or schema changes.
You would then need to edit picard or add a plugin to detect this and write chapter tags.



On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi!

One thing to keep in mind is that we only do schema changes (which this would be, since it changes the database tables) twice per year, and we're skipping the next one - so the earliest this could be added is next May.

That said, supporting chapters (if doable in a way that doesn't make the UI even more confusing for casual users than it is now) sounds useful, so no reason not to discuss it :) Just making sure the time restrictions are clear to everyone.

On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 3:46 AM, Gerion Entrup <[hidden email]> wrote:
Good day,

I have searched (eg [1], [2]), but did not find anything appropriate, so I want make a suggestion:
What do you think about chapter support in Musicbrainz?

Concretly I see three usecases, that are actually not possible:

1. Releases of audiobooks as one complete track. As far as I know, two usual formats exists for this files. The first are iPod m4b files. Technically this is a mp4-Container with AAC-Audio and a Chapterfile. You can buy it from the iTunes Store or create it [3], [4]. The second format are Audible-Audiobooks. Technically this is a proprietary container with mp3-Audio and a Chapterfile [5]. Maybe Audible-Files are not so high priority, because no Muxer exists for this files (a demuxer is just discussed as patch for FFmpeg/Libav). Also Matroska and some other formats support Chapters, but I don't know a (hardware) player or shop, that uses Matroska for audiobooks. If you have such a file and want to tag it with Musicbrainz/Picard, you will not be able to do this, because there is no support for chapters.

2. Releases of DJ-mixes. Often DJ-mixes contain a tracklist, e.g. [6], [7]. I see, that it is possible to link one or more recordings as relationship to a DJ-mix, but the cleaner solution, I think, are chapters. On the one hand you can define timestamps for chapters. On the other hand Picard (or another tagger) can write chapters directly into the files, so that a player can show the actual track directly.

3. Podcasts. I'm not sure, whether Musicbrainz want to be a database for podcasts, but podcasts often use chapters [8].

As a suggestion chapters could be realized as a table:

chapter
PK, FK : part of recording (NOT NULL)
PK     : number (NOT NULL)
       : timestamp (NOT NULL)
    FK : recording (the recording it is the mix or the audiobookchapter from)

I'm excited about your comments.
Best,
Gerion

[1] https://musicbrainz.org/doc/Terminology
[2] https://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Style/Specific_types_of_releases/Audiobook
[3] https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/audiobook-binder/id413969927?mt=12
[4] http://forum.doom9.org/archive/index.php/t-146944.html
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audible.com#Quality
[6] http://www.edmliveset.com/news/nature-one-2015-liveset-collection/
[7] https://musicbrainz.org/recording/8a0f2d89-628b-41b0-bef2-fad2e145e4d3
[8] http://podlove.org/simple-chapters/


_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style



--
Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren

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[hidden email]
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style


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