Include in WikiDocs (Was: Improving the UI to encourage better data)

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Include in WikiDocs (Was: Improving the UI to encourage better data)

DonRedman
On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 14:02:01 +0200, Cristov Russell wrote:

> Probably the best way to do this is WikiDocs but it may mean
> carefully splitting some docs into subpages and using include macros [1]
> (I've just come across it now so I don't know if it's the right solution)
> for the "main" page. It minimum it would mean very stable structure in  
> pages
> used for WikiDocs but that's already under way.

Just a short note: Include does not work in WikiDocs.

This is a very simple internal restriction: The Include macro fetches the  
most *current* text that matches, to be WikiDocs compatible, it would need  
to fetch text from a version specified in the macro on the calling page.

It might be possible to patch moin to allow this, but I am not sure the  
Moin maintainers would accept it. Alternatively someone could implement an  
enhaced Include Macro component.

   DonRedman

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RE: Include in WikiDocs (Was: Improving the UI toencourage better data)

Cristov Russell
> On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 14:02:01 +0200, Cristov Russell wrote:
>
> > Probably the best way to do this is WikiDocs but it may
> mean carefully
> > splitting some docs into subpages and using include macros
> [1] (I've
> > just come across it now so I don't know if it's the right solution)
> > for the "main" page. It minimum it would mean very stable
> structure in
> > pages used for WikiDocs but that's already under way.
>
> Just a short note: Include does not work in WikiDocs.
>
> This is a very simple internal restriction: The Include macro
> fetches the most *current* text that matches, to be WikiDocs
> compatible, it would need to fetch text from a version
> specified in the macro on the calling page.
>
> It might be possible to patch moin to allow this, but I am
> not sure the Moin maintainers would accept it. Alternatively
> someone could implement an enhaced Include Macro component.
>
>    DonRedman

That's too bad. I think it would be preferably to leave these dynamic but if
includes would not work it would mean creating and maintaining separate
documents. I still think this preferable to what we currently have.

The whole discussion around voting no to edits without release information
is just another indicator of my original argument here; zout wants to get
people's attention to get more information. If the editor had been
encouraged to give this information or add a note as to why they weren't
giving it, zout would not be resorting to a less than IMO desirable method
of asking for more info.

--
Cristov (wolfsong)

If there are no stupid questions, then what sort of questions do stupid
people ask?
Dogbert


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Re: Include in WikiDocs (Was: Improving the UI toencourage better data)

DonRedman
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 02:25:36 +0200, Cristov Russell wrote:

> The whole discussion around voting no to edits without release  
> information
> is just another indicator of my original argument here; zout wants to get
> people's attention to get more information. If the editor had been
> encouraged to give this information or add a note as to why they weren't
> giving it, zout would not be resorting to a less than IMO desirable  
> method
> of asking for more info.

Oops, hve I misunderstood you?

Are you suggesting to include small portions of wiki text into static  
pages? This is possible and actually the next big step Rob and me planned  
for WikiDocs.

I was referring to includes of wiki text into another wiki page which gets  
transcluded as WikiDocs. This is not possible without patching or an  
enhanced Include macro.

   DonRedman

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Re: Include in WikiDocs (Was: Improving the UI toencourage better data)

Alexander Dupuy
Don Redman wrote:

> Are you suggesting to include small portions of wiki text into static  
> pages? This is possible and actually the next big step Rob and me
> planned  for WikiDocs.
>
> I was referring to includes of wiki text into another wiki page which
> gets  transcluded as WikiDocs. This is not possible without patching
> or an  enhanced Include macro.


So the idea is to take a current wiki style page and split it into
subpages; these subpages would be transcluded into wikidocs pages that
would be embedded into the user interface at relevant locations to
provide "inline help" at the point where it is needed.

On the Wiki side, the subpages would be Include()d using the Moin macro,
thereby presenting (more or less) the same overall structure as they had
before being split up into smaller chunks for inline embedding.

Is this a correct summary of the idea for the next stage of WikiDocs?

@alex

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Re: Include in WikiDocs (Was: Improving the UI toencourage better data)

Cristov Russell
Excellent! While you did understand my original statement, I think this can work as well.

Cristov (wolfsong)

--- [hidden email] wrote:

From: "Don Redman" <[hidden email]>
To: "Discussions about the development of MusicBrainz for experienced users" <[hidden email]>
Cc:
Subject: Re: [mb-experts] Include in WikiDocs (Was: Improving the UI toencourage better data)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 16:53:28 +0200

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 02:25:36 +0200, Cristov Russell wrote:

> The whole discussion around voting no to edits without release  
> information
> is just another indicator of my original argument here; zout wants to get
> people's attention to get more information. If the editor had been
> encouraged to give this information or add a note as to why they weren't
> giving it, zout would not be resorting to a less than IMO desirable  
> method
> of asking for more info.

Oops, hve I misunderstood you?

Are you suggesting to include small portions of wiki text into static  
pages? This is possible and actually the next big step Rob and me planned  
for WikiDocs.

I was referring to includes of wiki text into another wiki page which gets  
transcluded as WikiDocs. This is not possible without patching or an  
enhanced Include macro.

   DonRedman

--
Words that are written in CamelCase refer to WikiPages:
Visit http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ the best MusicBrainz documentation  
around! :-)
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Re: Include in WikiDocs (Was: Improving the UI toencourage better data)

DonRedman
In reply to this post by Alexander Dupuy
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 17:33:32 +0200, Alexander Dupuy wrote:

> Don Redman wrote:
>
>> Are you suggesting to include small portions of wiki text into static  
>> pages? This is possible and actually the next big step Rob and me  
>> planned  for WikiDocs.
>>
>> I was referring to includes of wiki text into another wiki page which  
>> gets  transcluded as WikiDocs. This is not possible without patching or  
>> an  enhanced Include macro.
>
>
> So the idea is to take a current wiki style page and split it into  
> subpages; these subpages would be transcluded into wikidocs pages that  
> would be embedded into the user interface at relevant locations to  
> provide "inline help" at the point where it is needed.

Yes, ecxept that the splitting causes problems (see below). Maybe the  
transclusion mechanism could use the MoinMoin Include() code and only  
transclude part of the page? This way we could leave the wiki page intact.  
Hmm, but Moin is in Python and MBserver in perl...

> On the Wiki side, the subpages would be Include()d using the Moin macro,  
> thereby presenting (more or less) the same overall structure as they had  
> before being split up into smaller chunks for inline embedding.

This aspect is difficult for two reasons:

Using include within the wiki would prohibit to use this text in other  
WikiDocs cases. The *including* page could not be transcludes as WikiDocs  
for the reasons I outlined in my previous mail.

The other reason has more to do with wiki nature. A wiki page is not just  
a piece of text, but a piece of text *in a context* (hence my endless  
quest for intertwingling). if you take this text out of the context it is  
used in on the wiki, and transclude it into toher context, you get  
problems.

Robert and my initial idea was to create a sub-wiki (sub pages within  
wiki.mb.org) which is explicitly dedicated to providing text for the  
website. Thus both within the wiki and as transcluded pages the text would  
have the same context.
Technically I think something like this makes sense:

A page like WebSiteWikiText (better WikiName, anyone?). A subpage of this  
one for each context on the website, like AddAlbum. And then sub-subpages  
with the text that gets transcluded, like BadCapitalizationWarning or  
TrackTimeInfo.

The root page would serve as description of the project and entry page to  
it, the sub-pages would serve as discussion grounds and the sub-sub pages  
would host the text which emerges from the discussions.

Is this feasible? What about caching, i.e is this scalable?

   DonRedman


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