Language of track titles

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Language of track titles

Greg Ward
Hi all --

I'm comparing

  http://musicbrainz.org/release/881b0e35-6e2f-3294-a5c4-acb0bf92e1df

(note English release title and track titles) to the CD in my hand.
It's a release by a Hungarian band, and the liner notes are all in
Hungarian. The song titles are listed on the CD cover in Hungarian
first, then with English. The name of the album is Hungarian on the
front cover, English on the spine, and both on the back cover.

What's the style policy here? Should I change the release title and
track titles in MBZ to Hungarian, or keep them English?

Thanks --

       Greg
--
Greg Ward                            http://www.gerg.ca
<[hidden email]>                       @gergdotca

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Re: Language of track titles

Jazzy Jarilith
I'd probably use the band's native language for the title and the track titles. And even though I don't agree with it, I've seen editors using both the native language and English for titles of similar releases. A feature that would allow to store both tracklists (in Hungarian and in English here), and to display only one based on the users preferences, would be very neat.


2014-07-18 3:24 GMT+02:00 Greg Ward <[hidden email]>:
Hi all --

I'm comparing

  http://musicbrainz.org/release/881b0e35-6e2f-3294-a5c4-acb0bf92e1df

(note English release title and track titles) to the CD in my hand.
It's a release by a Hungarian band, and the liner notes are all in
Hungarian. The song titles are listed on the CD cover in Hungarian
first, then with English. The name of the album is Hungarian on the
front cover, English on the spine, and both on the back cover.

What's the style policy here? Should I change the release title and
track titles in MBZ to Hungarian, or keep them English?

Thanks --

       Greg
--
Greg Ward                            http://www.gerg.ca
<[hidden email]>                       @gergdotca

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Re: Language of track titles

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 10:42 AM, Jazzy Jarilith <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'd probably use the band's native language for the title and the track titles. And even though I don't agree with it, I've seen editors using both the native language and English for titles of similar releases. A feature that would allow to store both tracklists (in Hungarian and in English here), and to display only one based on the users preferences, would be very neat.

You could always keep this English one as a pseudo-release, add the Hungarian one (reusing recordings and in the same RG) and link the two with the "translated tracklist" relationship, if you want to keep both.

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Re: Language of track titles

Wieland Hoffmann-2
In reply to this post by Greg Ward
Hallo Greg Ward:

> Hi all --
>
> I'm comparing
>
>   http://musicbrainz.org/release/881b0e35-6e2f-3294-a5c4-acb0bf92e1df
>
> [...]
>
> What's the style policy here? Should I change the release title and
> track titles in MBZ to Hungarian, or keep them English?

I don't think we have any guidelines covering this, but I'd keep the
release and track title as they are and change the language of the
release to english, simply because this MBID has had english titles
behind it for 11 years.

You can then create a new release with the hungarian titles and link the
two with the "translated" relationship [0] which does cover cases like
this:

> All translated and transliterated versions of a release should be
> linked to a single official release. If there is more than one
> official release, use the version which has titles in the artist's
> native language as the release to which a link is made.

[0] https://musicbrainz.org/relationship/fc399d47-23a7-4c28-bfcf-0607a562b644

--
Wieland

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Re: Language of track titles

Frederic Da Vitoria
2014-07-18 9:53 GMT+02:00 Wieland Hoffmann <[hidden email]>:
Hallo Greg Ward:
> [...]
>
> What's the style policy here? Should I change the release title and
> track titles in MBZ to Hungarian, or keep them English?

I don't think we have any guidelines covering this, but I'd keep the
release and track title as they are and change the language of the
release to english, simply because this MBID has had english titles
behind it for 11 years.

You can then create a new release with the hungarian titles and link the
two with the "translated" relationship [0] which does cover cases like
this:

> All translated and transliterated versions of a release should be
> linked to a single official release. If there is more than one
> official release, use the version which has titles in the artist's
> native language as the release to which a link is made.

[0] https://musicbrainz.org/relationship/fc399d47-23a7-4c28-bfcf-0607a562b644

I wonder about using translated AR: there is only one release, creating a new Release in MB would suggest there are 2 physically distinct releases with different languages, which is not what is happening here.

--
Frederic Da Vitoria
(davitof)

Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org

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Re: Language of track titles

Wieland Hoffmann-2
Hallo Frederic Da Vitoria:

> 2014-07-18 9:53 GMT+02:00 Wieland Hoffmann <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Hallo Greg Ward:
> > > Hi all --
> > >
> > > I'm comparing
> > >
> > >   http://musicbrainz.org/release/881b0e35-6e2f-3294-a5c4-acb0bf92e1df
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > What's the style policy here? Should I change the release title and
> > > track titles in MBZ to Hungarian, or keep them English?
> >
> > I don't think we have any guidelines covering this, but I'd keep the
> > release and track title as they are and change the language of the
> > release to english, simply because this MBID has had english titles
> > behind it for 11 years.
> >
> > You can then create a new release with the hungarian titles and link the
> > two with the "translated" relationship [0] which does cover cases like
> > this:
> >
> > > All translated and transliterated versions of a release should be
> > > linked to a single official release. If there is more than one
> > > official release, use the version which has titles in the artist's
> > > native language as the release to which a link is made.
> >
> > [0]
> > https://musicbrainz.org/relationship/fc399d47-23a7-4c28-bfcf-0607a562b644
>
>
> I wonder about using translated AR: there is only one release, creating a
> new Release in MB would suggest there are 2 physically distinct releases
> with different languages, which is not what is happening here.

Well, I'm not sure what alternatives there are. The release clearly
lists both english and hungarian titles [0], so neither of them are more
correct or official than the others. Unless you want to include both
languages in one tracklist, there's not much we can do other than
creating a new release with the hungarian tracklist.

[0] http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=617418

--
Wieland

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Re: Language of track titles

tommycrock



On 18 July 2014 17:53, Wieland Hoffmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hallo Frederic Da Vitoria:
> 2014-07-18 9:53 GMT+02:00 Wieland Hoffmann <[hidden email]>:
>
> I wonder about using translated AR: there is only one release, creating a
> new Release in MB would suggest there are 2 physically distinct releases
> with different languages, which is not what is happening here.

Well, I'm not sure what alternatives there are. The release clearly
lists both english and hungarian titles [0], so neither of them are more
correct or official than the others. Unless you want to include both
languages in one tracklist, there's not much we can do other than
creating a new release with the hungarian tracklist.


I would have thought best to do as Nicolas suggested: change this release to a pseudo-release in English, but then also create a pseudo-release in Hungarian and an official release showing what was on the cover (all linked together). That's what the style guide says:
"If the release has tracks listed in multiple languages, the entry with both languages included is considered to be the official release. Entries with only one of the languages on the cover should be set to pseudo-release."
http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Release

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Re: Language of track titles

Wieland Hoffmann-2
Hallo Tom Crocker:

> On 18 July 2014 17:53, Wieland Hoffmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hallo Frederic Da Vitoria:
> > > 2014-07-18 9:53 GMT+02:00 Wieland Hoffmann <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > I wonder about using translated AR: there is only one release, creating a
> > > new Release in MB would suggest there are 2 physically distinct releases
> > > with different languages, which is not what is happening here.
> >
> > Well, I'm not sure what alternatives there are. The release clearly
> > lists both english and hungarian titles [0], so neither of them are more
> > correct or official than the others. Unless you want to include both
> > languages in one tracklist, there's not much we can do other than
> > creating a new release with the hungarian tracklist.
> >
> >
> I would have thought best to do as Nicolas suggested: change this release
> to a pseudo-release in English, but then also create a pseudo-release in
> Hungarian and an official release showing what was on the cover (all linked
> together). That's what the style guide says:
> "If the release has tracks listed in multiple languages, the entry with
> both languages included is considered to be the official release. Entries
> with only one of the languages on the cover should be set to
> pseudo-release."
> http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Release

Ah, so we do have a guideline about this, although I've never seen it
applied to any release. In that case, do what the guideline says :-)


--
Wieland

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Re: Language of track titles

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 9:17 PM, Wieland Hoffmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hallo Tom Crocker:
> On 18 July 2014 17:53, Wieland Hoffmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hallo Frederic Da Vitoria:
> > > 2014-07-18 9:53 GMT+02:00 Wieland Hoffmann <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > I wonder about using translated AR: there is only one release, creating a
> > > new Release in MB would suggest there are 2 physically distinct releases
> > > with different languages, which is not what is happening here.
> >
> > Well, I'm not sure what alternatives there are. The release clearly
> > lists both english and hungarian titles [0], so neither of them are more
> > correct or official than the others. Unless you want to include both
> > languages in one tracklist, there's not much we can do other than
> > creating a new release with the hungarian tracklist.
> >
> >
> I would have thought best to do as Nicolas suggested: change this release
> to a pseudo-release in English, but then also create a pseudo-release in
> Hungarian and an official release showing what was on the cover (all linked
> together). That's what the style guide says:
> "If the release has tracks listed in multiple languages, the entry with
> both languages included is considered to be the official release. Entries
> with only one of the languages on the cover should be set to
> pseudo-release."
> http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Release

Ah, so we do have a guideline about this, although I've never seen it
applied to any release. In that case, do what the guideline says :-)


I've honestly never seen any release entered like that - and I would think it a mistake if I did! :/ I was just suggesting the two releases with the independent languages without a combined one... but I guess if there's a guideline you might want to follow it.

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Re: Language of track titles

Jazzy Jarilith
I've seen it applied sometimes but I didn't know it was a guideline... I'd have never thought of entering a release like this either, it does not make much sense to me to have songs with redundant titles.


2014-07-18 20:36 GMT+02:00 Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren <[hidden email]>:
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 9:17 PM, Wieland Hoffmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hallo Tom Crocker:
> On 18 July 2014 17:53, Wieland Hoffmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hallo Frederic Da Vitoria:
> > > 2014-07-18 9:53 GMT+02:00 Wieland Hoffmann <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > I wonder about using translated AR: there is only one release, creating a
> > > new Release in MB would suggest there are 2 physically distinct releases
> > > with different languages, which is not what is happening here.
> >
> > Well, I'm not sure what alternatives there are. The release clearly
> > lists both english and hungarian titles [0], so neither of them are more
> > correct or official than the others. Unless you want to include both
> > languages in one tracklist, there's not much we can do other than
> > creating a new release with the hungarian tracklist.
> >
> >
> I would have thought best to do as Nicolas suggested: change this release
> to a pseudo-release in English, but then also create a pseudo-release in
> Hungarian and an official release showing what was on the cover (all linked
> together). That's what the style guide says:
> "If the release has tracks listed in multiple languages, the entry with
> both languages included is considered to be the official release. Entries
> with only one of the languages on the cover should be set to
> pseudo-release."
> http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Release

Ah, so we do have a guideline about this, although I've never seen it
applied to any release. In that case, do what the guideline says :-)


I've honestly never seen any release entered like that - and I would think it a mistake if I did! :/ I was just suggesting the two releases with the independent languages without a combined one... but I guess if there's a guideline you might want to follow it.

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Re: Language of track titles

Frederic Da Vitoria
In reply to this post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
2014-07-18 20:36 GMT+02:00 Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren <[hidden email]>:
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 9:17 PM, Wieland Hoffmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hallo Tom Crocker:
> On 18 July 2014 17:53, Wieland Hoffmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hallo Frederic Da Vitoria:
> > > 2014-07-18 9:53 GMT+02:00 Wieland Hoffmann <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > I wonder about using translated AR: there is only one release, creating a
> > > new Release in MB would suggest there are 2 physically distinct releases
> > > with different languages, which is not what is happening here.
> >
> > Well, I'm not sure what alternatives there are. The release clearly
> > lists both english and hungarian titles [0], so neither of them are more
> > correct or official than the others. Unless you want to include both
> > languages in one tracklist, there's not much we can do other than
> > creating a new release with the hungarian tracklist.
> >
> >
> I would have thought best to do as Nicolas suggested: change this release
> to a pseudo-release in English, but then also create a pseudo-release in
> Hungarian and an official release showing what was on the cover (all linked
> together). That's what the style guide says:
> "If the release has tracks listed in multiple languages, the entry with
> both languages included is considered to be the official release. Entries
> with only one of the languages on the cover should be set to
> pseudo-release."
> http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Release

Ah, so we do have a guideline about this, although I've never seen it
applied to any release. In that case, do what the guideline says :-)


I've honestly never seen any release entered like that - and I would think it a mistake if I did! :/ I was just suggesting the two releases with the independent languages without a combined one... but I guess if there's a guideline you might want to follow it.

Your suggestion is the best IMO. Why would you see it as a mistake?

--
Frederic Da Vitoria
(davitof)

Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org

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Re: Language of track titles

tommycrock


On 18 Jul 2014 21:59, "Frederic Da Vitoria" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 2014-07-18 20:36 GMT+02:00 Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>
>>
>> I've honestly never seen any release entered like that - and I would think it a mistake if I did! :/ I was just suggesting the two releases with the independent languages without a combined one... but I guess if there's a guideline you might want to follow it.
>
>
> Your suggestion is the best IMO. Why would you see it as a mistake?
>
> --
> Frederic Da Vitoria
> (davitof)
>

I think it's putting both languages in the official release that he would have thought was a mistake. He suggested a Hungarian official release with an English pseudo release.
The good thing about putting both is it follows the most simple rule, do what it says on the cover. But since I almost never deal with non-English releases I have no experience with any of this stuff or any strong opinion on it.


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