Multiple alternate translations for track names and release titles

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Multiple alternate translations for track names and release titles

Jim Duke
I have a fairly large collection of classical releases that provide multiple translations of the release title, and for each track.  For example, the following entry is somewhat illustrative of this:

https://musicbrainz.org/release/e153542f-6fa9-43cf-a92d-d2889b6b4d2b

I include it because it has a fairly complete collection of cover art.

The track names are all in English; which is appropriate for this release since the dominant language of the release is English.  However, alternative translations are provided on the release.

I think it would be good to add alternate translations for titles and track names, where such translations are provided in the release.  I'm not sure how the schema would need to change to accommodate it.  But it seems, from a style policy perspective that we should be able to capture the provided track translations.

So, in the above example, track one would be:

[English]: The Planets, op. 32: Mars, the Bringer of War.  Allegro
[German]: Die Planeten, op. 32: Mars, der Kriegsbringer.  Allegro
[French]: Les Planètes, op. 32: Mars, le porteur de la guerre.  Allegro
[Italian]: I Pianeti, op. 32: Marte, il portatore di guerra.  Allegro

The system would allow all 4 provided translations; and make the English one the default (since that is the dominant one in the release).

Thoughts?



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Re: Multiple alternate translations for track names and release titles

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 1:47 AM, Jim Duke <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have a fairly large collection of classical releases that provide multiple translations of the release title, and for each track.  For example, the following entry is somewhat illustrative of this:

https://musicbrainz.org/release/e153542f-6fa9-43cf-a92d-d2889b6b4d2b

I include it because it has a fairly complete collection of cover art.

The track names are all in English; which is appropriate for this release since the dominant language of the release is English.  However, alternative translations are provided on the release.

I think it would be good to add alternate translations for titles and track names, where such translations are provided in the release.  I'm not sure how the schema would need to change to accommodate it.  But it seems, from a style policy perspective that we should be able to capture the provided track translations.

So, in the above example, track one would be:

[English]: The Planets, op. 32: Mars, the Bringer of War.  Allegro
[German]: Die Planeten, op. 32: Mars, der Kriegsbringer.  Allegro
[French]: Les Planètes, op. 32: Mars, le porteur de la guerre.  Allegro
[Italian]: I Pianeti, op. 32: Marte, il portatore di guerra.  Allegro

Hi! 

That's basically what our guidelines say, actually - except that we don't have real support for multiple tracklists, so we use what we call a "pseudo-release". See the last section of http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Classical/Track/Title (and, relatedly, http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Specific_types_of_releases/Pseudo-Releases) :)

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Re: Multiple alternate translations for track names and release titles

Jim Duke
Ok.  I see that now.  My brain just doesn't seem to want to absorb the concept of "psuedo-release".  Not sure why.  I must have read that a zillion times and it just doesn't stick.

On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 6:50 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 1:47 AM, Jim Duke <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have a fairly large collection of classical releases that provide multiple translations of the release title, and for each track.  For example, the following entry is somewhat illustrative of this:

https://musicbrainz.org/release/e153542f-6fa9-43cf-a92d-d2889b6b4d2b

I include it because it has a fairly complete collection of cover art.

The track names are all in English; which is appropriate for this release since the dominant language of the release is English.  However, alternative translations are provided on the release.

I think it would be good to add alternate translations for titles and track names, where such translations are provided in the release.  I'm not sure how the schema would need to change to accommodate it.  But it seems, from a style policy perspective that we should be able to capture the provided track translations.

So, in the above example, track one would be:

[English]: The Planets, op. 32: Mars, the Bringer of War.  Allegro
[German]: Die Planeten, op. 32: Mars, der Kriegsbringer.  Allegro
[French]: Les Planètes, op. 32: Mars, le porteur de la guerre.  Allegro
[Italian]: I Pianeti, op. 32: Marte, il portatore di guerra.  Allegro

Hi! 

That's basically what our guidelines say, actually - except that we don't have real support for multiple tracklists, so we use what we call a "pseudo-release". See the last section of http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Classical/Track/Title (and, relatedly, http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Specific_types_of_releases/Pseudo-Releases) :)

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Re: Multiple alternate translations for track names and release titles

KRSCuan
On 14.01.2015 01:00 Jim Duke wrote:
> Ok.  I see that now.  My brain just doesn't seem to want to absorb the
> concept of "psuedo-release".  Not sure why.  I must have read that a
> zillion times and it just doesn't stick.
You're not the only one. A lot of users seem to have problems with it.

Incidentally, we just recently had a style discussion about
pseudo-releases, where I also argued that we properly support multiple
tracklists and then get rid of pseudos instead.

On 14.01.2015 00:47 Jim Duke wrote:
> I think it would be good to add alternate translations for
> titles and track names, where such translations are provided in
> the release.  I'm not sure how the schema would need to change
> to accommodate it.  But it seems, from a style policy
> perspective that we should be able to capture the provided track
> translations.

We're not sure how to change the schema either. There is an open ticket
for the technical side of it:
http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/MBS-4501 Feel free to comment
and/or vote there if you want this implemented.

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Re: Multiple alternate translations for track names and release titles

Jim Duke
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 7:42 AM, KRSCuan <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 14.01.2015 01:00 Jim Duke wrote:
> Ok.  I see that now.  My brain just doesn't seem to want to absorb the
> concept of "psuedo-release".  Not sure why.  I must have read that a
> zillion times and it just doesn't stick.
You're not the only one. A lot of users seem to have problems with it.

That helps me feel better, then.

Incidentally, we just recently had a style discussion about
pseudo-releases, where I also argued that we properly support multiple
tracklists and then get rid of pseudos instead.

Something seems off about using the term "Multiple Track Lists".  There is, in fact, only one list of tracks.  It's just that when viewing that track list you want to be able to view it using different locale settings (language, time/date, etc.).  If there were in reality more than one list of tracks - where the difference is more than just locale based - then you have separate releases - wouldn't you?  Probably as part of the same Release Group.

I don't see why we view it differently than how we view multi-locale web page viewing.  There is only one web page.  But the user can choose what locale settings should be used when the web page is pulled and rendered.  It seems to me that the difference should be at the lowest level: the actual entries that contain text.  Textual entries should provide multi-lingual support; meaning that for a particular textual attribute; you have the means to store multiple versions of that text in different languages.

So (and I'm making this up as an example - don't skewer me for getting the schema wrong); you might have a table describing tracks.  Each track would have something like the following attributes:

* TrackID (one or more attributes that uniquely identify this track)
* ReleaseID (the Release this track is a part of)
* Language
* Script
* TrackName (unicode string; name of the track in the language and script specified)
* Duration (time)
* Track Number
* and so on.

There are a few ways multilingual support is typically added in this case.  You could add a supporting table that provides alternate track names.  Call it the AlternateTrackNameTable.  It would link to the primary track table; and provide alternate translations.  The track name in the main table would be the default name.  It would have a structure like:

* TrackID
* Language
* Script
* TrackName

Or, you could not have TrackName in the main table; and have a TrackNameID instead; that references a TrackNameTable, or even a general, NameTable that could be used for more than just tracks.  That table would have a structure like:

* TrackNameID (the ID of the track name)
* Language (one of a finite list of languages supported)
* Script (one of a finite list of scripts supported)
* Name (the Track Name in the Language and Script specified)

Sorry for going so far down an implementation path.  I only added that last bit to help illustrate my point.  Obviously there would be a bunch of work associated with this change - schema work, GUI work, etc. etc.

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Re: Multiple alternate translations for track names and release titles

Alex Mauer
In reply to this post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On 01/13/2015 05:50 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote:

>     So, in the above example, track one would be:
>
>     [English]: The Planets, op. 32: Mars, the Bringer of War.  Allegro
>     [German]: Die Planeten, op. 32: Mars, der Kriegsbringer.  Allegro
>     [French]: Les Planètes, op. 32: Mars, le porteur de la guerre.  Allegro
>     [Italian]: I Pianeti, op. 32: Marte, il portatore di guerra.  Allegro
>
> That's basically what our guidelines say, actually - except that we
> don't have real support for multiple tracklists, so we use what we call
> a "pseudo-release". See the last section of
> http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Classical/Track/Title (and,
> relatedly, http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Specific_types_of_releases/Pseudo-Releases)

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think these would be entered as actual
separate releases (with appropriate "translated" ARs).

https://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Release says:

“Pseudo-release should be used for translations or transliterations that
do not appear on an actual release (even if they appear on an official
site).”

Since these *do* appear on an actual release, I would think they would
count as an official release tracklist as well.



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Re: Multiple alternate translations for track names and release titles

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 8:38 PM, Alex Mauer <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 01/13/2015 05:50 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote:
>     So, in the above example, track one would be:
>
>     [English]: The Planets, op. 32: Mars, the Bringer of War.  Allegro
>     [German]: Die Planeten, op. 32: Mars, der Kriegsbringer.  Allegro
>     [French]: Les Planètes, op. 32: Mars, le porteur de la guerre.  Allegro
>     [Italian]: I Pianeti, op. 32: Marte, il portatore di guerra.  Allegro
>
> That's basically what our guidelines say, actually - except that we
> don't have real support for multiple tracklists, so we use what we call
> a "pseudo-release". See the last section of
> http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Classical/Track/Title (and,
> relatedly, http://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Specific_types_of_releases/Pseudo-Releases)

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think these would be entered as actual
separate releases (with appropriate "translated" ARs).

https://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Release says:

“Pseudo-release should be used for translations or transliterations that
do not appear on an actual release (even if they appear on an official
site).”

Since these *do* appear on an actual release, I would think they would
count as an official release tracklist as well.

Well, that also says (a bit further down): 

"If the release has tracks listed in multiple languages, the entry with both languages included is considered to be the official release. Entries with only one of the languages on the cover should be set to pseudo-release." 

Given that would be very unwieldy for classical ("Sonata in G major / Sonate en Sol majeur / Sonate G-Dur, op. X: I. Allegro" for a reasonable short title), the classical titles guideline instructs to instead pick one as official, and use the rest as pseudos if desired :)
--
Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren

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