Musical quotation/lyrical references (STYLE-348)

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
9 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Musical quotation/lyrical references (STYLE-348)

th1rtyf0ur
Huey Lewis' "I Want a New Drug" came up on shuffle a while back & I
noticed the guitar solo at the end quoted the lead riff of "Purple Haze",
and realized there's currently no AR to specify such a relationship, as it
doesn't really fit under any of the existing relationships. I started
typing up a new feature request & realized this could be applied to lyrics
as well, including indirect references, e.g. The Beatles' "Glass Onion"
referring to other Beatles songs like "Strawberry Fields Forever" and "I
Am the Walrus" (Megadeth does the same kind of thing in "Victory").

Not sure exactly how the new BDFL workflow is gonna go, but I figured it
wouldn't hurt to post a link to the feature request here for input as
well. :) Particularly, if this should be only for work-work relationships,
or if recording-work ARs should be added as well- I can think of a large
number of live recordings that include brief quotes from other songs that
seem too short to be listed as "partial live cover"... But then, in the
case of the Huey Lewis example, should it really be a work-work AR if the
shorter version (~3:32 radio/video edit; full version is ~4:46) doesn't
include the snippet? Or is "partial cover of" more appropriate there, even
if it is only a single guitar line?

Refs:
AR proposal: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-348
Wiki (w/ classical & jazz examples): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_quotation
Huey Lewis' "Purple Haze" tease: https://youtu.be/3ZwQRCkKxNE?t=4m16s
The Beatles' "Glass Onion": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_Onion#Lyrics
Megadeth's "Victory": http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/megadeth/youthanasia.html#12

_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Musical quotation/lyrical references (STYLE-348)

Rachel Dwight
I made a wiki page about this a while back. 
This is commonly referred to as “interpolation” and in many cases has led to lawsuits. In recent years musicians have had to obtain licenses for the interpolated/quoted material, as seen in the liner notes of Bloodhound Gang’s “Hooray for Boobies” https://beta.musicbrainz.org/release/6159eedd-63f7-47ec-9714-546108f77576 (which I have yet to scan).

On Nov 17, 2014, at 1:57 AM, th1rtyf0ur <[hidden email]> wrote:

Huey Lewis' "I Want a New Drug" came up on shuffle a while back & I
noticed the guitar solo at the end quoted the lead riff of "Purple Haze",
and realized there's currently no AR to specify such a relationship, as it
doesn't really fit under any of the existing relationships. I started
typing up a new feature request & realized this could be applied to lyrics
as well, including indirect references, e.g. The Beatles' "Glass Onion"
referring to other Beatles songs like "Strawberry Fields Forever" and "I
Am the Walrus" (Megadeth does the same kind of thing in "Victory").

Not sure exactly how the new BDFL workflow is gonna go, but I figured it
wouldn't hurt to post a link to the feature request here for input as
well. :) Particularly, if this should be only for work-work relationships,
or if recording-work ARs should be added as well- I can think of a large
number of live recordings that include brief quotes from other songs that
seem too short to be listed as "partial live cover"... But then, in the
case of the Huey Lewis example, should it really be a work-work AR if the
shorter version (~3:32 radio/video edit; full version is ~4:46) doesn't
include the snippet? Or is "partial cover of" more appropriate there, even
if it is only a single guitar line?

Refs:
AR proposal: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-348
Wiki (w/ classical & jazz examples): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_quotation
Huey Lewis' "Purple Haze" tease: https://youtu.be/3ZwQRCkKxNE?t=4m16s
The Beatles' "Glass Onion": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_Onion#Lyrics
Megadeth's "Victory": http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/megadeth/youthanasia.html#12

_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style


_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Musical quotation/lyrical references (STYLE-348)

Ulrich Klauer
Rachel Dwight wrote:

> This is commonly referred to as “interpolation”

Judging from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpolation_%28music%29,  
this seems to be specific to hip hop, while the term means something  
different in other musical areas. I'd therefore prefer to keep the  
"quotation" wording.

Generally, +1 to the proposal (I already voted in favour of the ticket).

Ulrich


_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Musical quotation/lyrical references (STYLE-348)

jesus2099
In reply to this post by th1rtyf0ur
I can’t remember where but I know I have already used is the basis for work‐work AR for such a case.
I thought it was done exactly for that.

help wrote
This links two works, where the second work is based on music or text from the first, but isn't directly a revision or an arrangement of it.
wiki wrote
This is used when a new work is based on or includes (parts of) another work. The works are usually by different artists. Common examples would include classical fantasias and variation works, or when a new song is based on a poem or the lyrics of another song. The new work must be a new composition, not just an arrangement or the same music with different or translated lyrics.

* Can also be used if a composer rewrites old material into a new, different work, and you cannot say that it is a revision or an arrangement of the old work.

* Do not confuse this with medleys, mash-ups, remixes, etc.

* Only use one version-of relationship between any two works. That is, the second work is either an arrangement or "based on" the first work, not both.
And if you want to have a recording‐work (because it’s only on a one‐off performance) AR you can link to the borrowed work as is a partial recording of.

No ?
 PATATE12   jesus2099   GOLD MASTER KING   FAKE E-MAIL ADDRESS 
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Musical quotation/lyrical references (STYLE-348)

tommycrock


On 20 November 2014 15:24, jesus2099 <[hidden email]> wrote:
I can’t remember where but I know I have already used * is the basis for
<https://musicbrainz.org/relationship/6bb1df6b-57f3-434d-8a39-5dc363d2eb78>
* work‐work AR for such a case.
I thought it was done exactly for that.

<snip>

And if you want to have a recording‐work (because it’s only on a one‐off
performance) AR you can link to the borrowed work as /is a *partial*
recording of/.

No ?

Those are exactly what I've done in a load of cases. However, the wording--"is *the* basis for"--doesn't reflect very well the idea that one line has been nicked or morphed into the new work, particularly in cases where lots of lines, riffs, etc. from many works have been merged into a new work. So I don't know if the definition should be changed or the wording. Similarly, I wouldn't really call one-off lines inserted in a live performance of another song a partial recording of or a medley of (though I've used these to record it in the absence of anything better).
So I'd like to see these relationships added, and hope we'd be able to choose vocals and instruments on it too. If we could type in the lyric even better :)

_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Musical quotation/lyrical references (STYLE-348)

Alexander VanValin
In reply to this post by th1rtyf0ur
On 11/16/2014 11:57 PM, th1rtyf0ur wrote:
> Refs:
> AR proposal: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-348
> Wiki (w/ classical & jazz examples): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_quotation
> Huey Lewis' "Purple Haze" tease: https://youtu.be/3ZwQRCkKxNE?t=4m16s
> The Beatles' "Glass Onion": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_Onion#Lyrics
> Megadeth's "Victory": http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/megadeth/youthanasia.html#12
>
I've wanted to propose a "quote" relationship for a long time, but I
think it's worth taking a step back and looking at the different forms
of appropriation first.

The nav box at the bottom of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpolation_%28music%29 might be a good
starting point. I think we should be careful in choosing which terms we
want to use as MB relationships, given that it's kind of a spectrum with
lots of overlap.


_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Musical quotation/lyrical references (STYLE-348)

th1rtyf0ur
In reply to this post by jesus2099
On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 07:24:59AM -0800, jesus2099 wrote:
> I can’t remember where but I know I have already used * is the basis for
> <https://musicbrainz.org/relationship/6bb1df6b-57f3-434d-8a39-5dc363d2eb78>
> * work‐work AR for such a case.
> I thought it was done exactly for that.

"* is the basis for" generally implies that a much larger portion of the
song, if not the entire song, is based on the first. For example, "A
Lover's Concerto" (performed by The Supremes, etc.) is based on "Minuet in
G" by JS Bach- although the time signature differs, the melody is the same
throughout the entire song. In the example I give, "I Want a New Drug" is
in no way 'based on' "Purple Haze", save for a couple measures thrown into
the guitar solo at the end of the song. In this case the "quote" is a much
shorter bit in a song that otherwise has nothing to do with the original.
On some sites these are called "teases".

> And if you want to have a recording‐work (because it’s only on a one‐off
> performance) AR you can link to the borrowed work as /is a *partial*
> recording of/.

Yeah, I've been using the "partial live cover of" for that kind of thing-
just wondered if there was a more appropriate wording for it.

As for the "Interpolation (music)" wiki, the example given there of
"Ghetto Superstar" using the melody from "Islands in the Stream", this
isn't really a direct quote, and honestly seems to me to be more of a
"based on" relationship, since the chorus of GS directly uses the melody
from IitS, but with different words.  Perhaps "quote" and "interpolation"
(and any others deemed appropriate) could be sub-categories of the "based
on" relationship.

_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Musical quotation/lyrical references (STYLE-348)

practik
I've been dreaming of this relationship too, so thanks for taking action, 34 :-)

I'd suggest conceptualizing the relationship as broadly as possible.  Caller #6 came up with this wording a couple years ago in an edit discussion,* and I've always liked it:

"[work] includes [lyrics|music] adapted from [work]"

I like it because when musicians do this, they usually rework the borrowed material in some way.  For example, the Smiths song  "Hand in Glove" includes the line "And everything depends upon how near you stand to me."  That comes from Leonard Cohen's song "Take This Longing," but in that song it's "sleep," not "stand."

Maybe "Lover's Concerto" would be an example of the same thing on the musical level (same melody, different meter).  But my point is that if we just call it an adaptation, or something equally general, then we capture the essential information -- Work B includes some element of Work A -- without having to argue about whether that element is being quoted or interpolated or whatever.

Or if people really want to argue, then maybe we could have subcategories like you mentioned, 34.  But I'd like the broad category to be selectable as well, for editors like me who don't care to get that deep into it.

Personally, I'm mainly interested in seeing a work-work relationship get created here.  I'm not at all opposed to the work-recording version, but I'm happy enough using "partial performance" for that one.

Patrick

* https://musicbrainz.org/edit/17141710
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Musical quotation/lyrical references (STYLE-348)

jesus2099
In reply to this post by th1rtyf0ur
th1rtyf0ur wrote
On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 07:24:59AM -0800, jesus2099 wrote:
> I can’t remember where but I know I have already used * is the basis for
> <https://musicbrainz.org/relationship/6bb1df6b-57f3-434d-8a39-5dc363d2eb78> 
> * work‐work AR for such a case.
> I thought it was done exactly for that.

"* is the basis for" generally implies that a much larger portion of the
song, if not the entire song, is based on the first. For example, "A
Lover's Concerto" (performed by The Supremes, etc.) is based on "Minuet in
G" by JS Bach- although the time signature differs, the melody is the same
throughout the entire song. In the example I give, "I Want a New Drug" is
in no way 'based on' "Purple Haze", save for a couple measures thrown into
the guitar solo at the end of the song. In this case the "quote" is a much
shorter bit in a song that otherwise has nothing to do with the original.
On some sites these are called "teases".
You are IMO describing the later version of relationship, there.
And is the basis for is the missing relationhsip you seek, it’s just not worded perfectly for you but it seems to me that you can use it and ask for a better name IMO or additional attributes. :)
 PATATE12   jesus2099   GOLD MASTER KING   FAKE E-MAIL ADDRESS