RFC-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

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RFC-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
(sorry for my possibly awful English below)

I’d like to refine last change for the Vietnamese guideline page, specifically the punctuation part of it.

As we know, there is no known official written guidelines for written Vietnamese in printing indusrty etc.
As I tried to explain last time, the country has been using close to French typography for a long time in printings.
As a matter of fact, the creator of the latin transcription of Vietnamese, that is still used today, was French (Alexandre de Rhodes, cf. pics).

But we can nowadays find mixed content (even in the same book) between English and French style typography. WHY ?
1. One reason can be that there are many Vietnamese who immigrated to USA and that they are massively online since way before the country based Vietnamese. They have taken the habits of their surroundings (English style)
2. Now with Internet, people tend to follow what they see as most people do. The main language on it is English thus many people wrongly use typography from it for Vietnamese (same goes for French)
3. (contrary to other countries like France) There is no written guidelines
4. etc.

Having said that, most (I would say 80%+) of the printings coming from the government (school books, propaganda posters, etc.) are using the proper typography with nnbsp (narrow no-break space) on nbsp (no-brak space) before !:;? punct.
Many books follow it too.
Newspapers are mixed (depends on which newspaper).
Internet is mixed but mostly English (American) style.

Now what I say is that when you find only English style results (for English), there are great chances that the language actually follows Eng. typo. style).
But when you encounter as many as that French style typography (mostly among official, educative, and 2 creators of VNM latinisation cf. pics.) mixed with some English typography in printings and massive English typography in online : That means it has great chances to originate from French typography but it’s heavily influenced by American typo. because of what we daily see online.
It is the case of Vietnamese. It is also the case of French — there are so many no space typo. mistakes too in French (I did them all myself before recently getting interested into the typography subject). The advantage of French is that it is documented.

So here you can find my proposal wiki page (closer to the roots).
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:jesus2099/Style/Language/Vietnamese
The punctuation part has changed compared with the current Guideline wiki page (further from the roots, the RFV was launched when I was briefly away — but not pureposely).
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Style/Language/Vietnamese
Although it has been first thought of a punctuation-less guideline which would have allowed to copy back covers directly for this point.
http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Capitalization-Standard-Vietnamese-tp1062411p1062415.html

Thanks for your possible comments,
Tristan (jesus2099).

## pics ##

governmental school books, I have all of them primary school (yes, large shelf) (usually nnbsp, sometimes nbsp, never no-space)
example, first language studying book
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/261/img0780qp9.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/444/img0782yw7.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/509/img0783gx1.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/149/img0784nc9.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/264/img0785ol4.jpg/

governmental street propaganda posters (RARE cases with no-space in my experience)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pauldornau/816976747/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/navelless/292715388/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegatling/1384327109/

forms and certificates
http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq256/vanxu2009/6-15.jpg (bottom-left, "số :")
http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq256/vanxu2009/4-26.jpg (same pos.)
http://www.kythuatin.com/f/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=53&thread_id=11944

The person who "set up" the writing system ( http://ribf.riken.go.jp/~dang/rhodes_motive.html )
Alexandre de Rhodes French who introduced latin alphabet for Vietnamese language
http://purl.pt/961 (mostly correct typo, go through the pages)
Nguyễn Văn Vĩnh, the guy who promoted quốc ngữ (latinisation of VNM) in early 1900 which led to its adoption as official writing system
http://www.nguyenvanvinh.net/Links/Ouvrages%20et%20travaux/Les%20Fables%20De%20Lafontaine/Folder_Les%20Fables_de_La_Fontaine.htm (One of his translations reproduced, go through pages)


other
a translated book
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Image:Vietnamese_translated_literature_book_A.jpg
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Image:Vietnamese_translated_literature_book_B.jpg
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Image:Vietnamese_translated_literature_book_C.jpg
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Image:Vietnamese_Doraemon.jpg (manga, nnbsp)
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/502/envip.jpg/ (the "best selling" english dictionary)
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/851/img1871j.jpg/ (family liệt sĩ -war hero- tombstone)
http://www.quangnam.gov.vn/Uploaded/image/P1000486.JPG (Việt Nam muôn năm nnbsp ! long live VN)
http://www.vatgia.com/liensonpaper&module=news&view=detail&record_id=33797 (sample invoice)

mixed results
http://kc08.vpct.gov.vn/Portals/0/untitled33.JPG (some banner)
http://giv.vn/?page=highlight&category=mau-giay-kiem-dinh-kim-cuong
http://www.cov.gov.vn/cbq/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=812&catid=52:tac-gia-va-tac-pham&Itemid=110 (paragraph + address ok ≠ phone numbers)

wrong results
You can find plenty of them given by Foolip too in http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Talk:Style/Language/Vietnamese
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Re: RFC-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
Hello there,
The RFC-346 period is about to end without comments.
If you don’t want this RFC to implode, please comment (+1 or real comment, as you wish).
Here is RFC-346’s text in below URL if you lost the emial.
http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4226419.html
Thanks,
Tristan.
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Re: RFC-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Nikki-3
In reply to this post by jesus2099
If this passes, it will be a guideline not a rule, so the page shouldn't
use "rule" or "must".

I don't think changing "Do not capitalize any word except for:" to
"These rules apply to album and track titles:" is an improvement either.
What about work titles? Recording titles? Releases which aren't albums?

With this guideline, instead of one way to write the title like the
current guideline, there would be three. IMO if you really want to have
spaces there, you should decide which character it should be and stick
with it. I doubt people would actually enter narrow non-breaking spaces
(and even those who try could easily confuse it with one of the many
other spaces they would find when looking for it in a character map), so
I would say that a normal space or a normal non-breaking one would be
better.

Nikki

jesus2099 wrote:

> (sorry for my possibly awful English below)
>
> I’d like to refine last change for the Vietnamese guideline page,
> specifically the punctuation part of it.
>
> As we know, there is no known official written guidelines for written
> Vietnamese in printing indusrty etc.
> As I tried to explain last time, the country has been using close to French
> typography for a long time in printings.
> As a matter of fact, the creator of the latin transcription of Vietnamese,
> that is still used today, was French (Alexandre de Rhodes, cf. pics).
>
> But we can nowadays find mixed content (even in the same book) between
> English and French style typography. WHY ?
> 1. One reason can be that there are many Vietnamese who immigrated to USA
> and that they are massively online since way before the country based
> Vietnamese. They have taken the habits of their surroundings (English style)
> 2. Now with Internet, people tend to follow what they see as most people do.
> The main language on it is English thus many people wrongly use typography
> from it for Vietnamese (same goes for French)
> 3. (contrary to other countries like France) There is no written guidelines
> 4. etc.
>
> Having said that, most (I would say 80%+) of the printings coming from the
> government (school books, propaganda posters, etc.) are using the proper
> typography with nnbsp (narrow no-break space) on nbsp (no-brak space) before
> !:;? punct.
> Many books follow it too.
> Newspapers are mixed (depends on which newspaper).
> Internet is mixed but mostly English (American) style.
>
> Now what I say is that when you find only English style results (for
> English), there are great chances that the language actually follows Eng.
> typo. style).
> But when you encounter as many as that French style typography (mostly among
> official, educative, and 2 creators of VNM latinisation cf. pics.) mixed
> with some English typography in printings and massive English typography in
> online : That means it has great chances to originate from French typography
> but it’s heavily influenced by American typo. because of what we daily see
> online.
> It is the case of Vietnamese. It is also the case of French — there are so
> many no space typo. mistakes too in French (I did them all myself before
> recently getting interested into the typography subject). The advantage of
> French is that it is documented.
>
> So here you can find my proposal wiki page (closer to the roots).
> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:jesus2099/Style/Language/Vietnamese
> The punctuation part has changed compared with the current Guideline wiki
> page (further from the roots, the RFV was launched when I was briefly away
> — but not pureposely).
> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Style/Language/Vietnamese
> Although it has been first thought of a punctuation-less guideline which
> would have allowed to copy back covers directly for this point.
> http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Capitalization-Standard-Vietnamese-tp1062411p1062415.html
>
> Thanks for your possible comments,
> Tristan (jesus2099).
>
> ## pics ##
>
> governmental school books, I have all of them primary school (yes, large
> shelf) (usually nnbsp, sometimes nbsp, never no-space)
> example, first language studying book
> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/261/img0780qp9.jpg/
> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/444/img0782yw7.jpg/
> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/509/img0783gx1.jpg/
> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/149/img0784nc9.jpg/
> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/264/img0785ol4.jpg/
>
> governmental street propaganda posters (RARE cases with no-space in my
> experience)
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/pauldornau/816976747/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/navelless/292715388/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegatling/1384327109/
>
> forms and certificates
> http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq256/vanxu2009/6-15.jpg (bottom-left,
> "số :")
> http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq256/vanxu2009/4-26.jpg (same pos.)
> http://www.kythuatin.com/f/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=53&thread_id=11944
>
> The person who "set up" the writing system (
> http://ribf.riken.go.jp/~dang/rhodes_motive.html )
> Alexandre de Rhodes French who introduced latin alphabet for Vietnamese
> language
> http://purl.pt/961 (mostly correct typo, go through the pages)
> Nguyễn Văn Vĩnh, the guy who promoted quốc ngữ (latinisation of VNM) in
> early 1900 which led to its adoption as official writing system
> http://www.nguyenvanvinh.net/Links/Ouvrages%20et%20travaux/Les%20Fables%20De%20Lafontaine/Folder_Les%20Fables_de_La_Fontaine.htm
> (One of his translations reproduced, go through pages)
>
>
> other
> a translated book
> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Image:Vietnamese_translated_literature_book_A.jpg
> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Image:Vietnamese_translated_literature_book_B.jpg
> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Image:Vietnamese_translated_literature_book_C.jpg
> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Image:Vietnamese_Doraemon.jpg (manga, nnbsp)
> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/502/envip.jpg/ (the "best selling"
> english dictionary)
> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/851/img1871j.jpg/ (family liệt sĩ -war
> hero- tombstone)
> http://www.quangnam.gov.vn/Uploaded/image/P1000486.JPG (Việt Nam muôn năm
> nnbsp ! long live VN)
> http://www.vatgia.com/liensonpaper&module=news&view=detail&record_id=33797
> (sample invoice)
>
> mixed results
> http://kc08.vpct.gov.vn/Portals/0/untitled33.JPG (some banner)
> http://giv.vn/?page=highlight&category=mau-giay-kiem-dinh-kim-cuong
> http://www.cov.gov.vn/cbq/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=812&catid=52:tac-gia-va-tac-pham&Itemid=110
> (paragraph + address ok ≠ phone numbers)
>
> wrong results
> You can find plenty of them given by Foolip too in
> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Talk:Style/Language/Vietnamese
>
> -----
> jesus2099 × Ti = Tristan + patate12 ÷ saucisson7
> mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099
> mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts
>
> IMPORTANT : [hidden email] is a fake e-mail, I don’t receive anything in this.
> --
> View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4226419.html
> Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-style mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style


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Re: RFC-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
This post was updated on .
Thanks for your comment, Nikki. :)
Actually as lazy and lame at english, I copied the « These rules apply to album and track titles » part from current http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Style/Language/Portuguese and the « must/don’t/etc. » from current http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Style/Language/French :/

Sorry, I will try to make those point better.
I’ll also think about the nnbsp (which is the ultimately correct stuff) and spaces etc. when rewriting http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:jesus2099/Style/Language/Vietnamese .
I’ll tell you when done with it.
Tristan.
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Re: RFC-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
In reply to this post by Nikki-3
Here it is nikki, I removed all the « must », the « do not » and the « too many spaces » from the proposal, see hereby the new version.
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:jesus2099/Style/Language/Vietnamese
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Re: RFC-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
In reply to this post by jesus2099
After discussion in IRC, I propose a new compromised version of the punctuation part.
Thanks for this new English text, Nikki !

http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:jesus2099/Style/Language/Vietnamese#Punctuation
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Re: RFC-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 5:11 PM, jesus2099 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> After discussion in IRC, I propose a new compromised version of the
> punctuation part.
> Thanks for this new English text, Nikki !
>
> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:jesus2099/Style/Language/Vietnamese#Punctuation

Seeing nobody opposed this and they had plenty of time for it, I'll +1
it as soon as you update the examples (if both options are going to be
OK, we should have an example of both :) ) Nikki says
http://musicbrainz.org/recording/4dd3c607-0f36-44ee-a44f-8f3a339825b6
is clearly no-space on the cover, so you could use that. Also, please
link the examples to the recordings / releases / whatever in MB (the
syntax is [[recording:MBID|Name]].

Once that's done, I'll +1 and we can finally RFV this! :)


> -----
> jesus2099 × Ti = Tristan + patate12 ÷ saucisson7
> mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099
> mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts
>
> IMPORTANT : [hidden email] is a fake e-mail, I don’t receive anything in this.
> --
> View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4292622.html
> Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-style mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style



--
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Re: RFC-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
2012/2/2 Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren <[hidden email]>:

> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 5:11 PM, jesus2099 <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> After discussion in IRC, I propose a new compromised version of the
>> punctuation part.
>> Thanks for this new English text, Nikki !
>>
>> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:jesus2099/Style/Language/Vietnamese#Punctuation
>
> Seeing nobody opposed this and they had plenty of time for it, I'll +1
> it as soon as you update the examples (if both options are going to be
> OK, we should have an example of both :) ) Nikki says
> http://musicbrainz.org/recording/4dd3c607-0f36-44ee-a44f-8f3a339825b6
> is clearly no-space on the cover, so you could use that. Also, please
> link the examples to the recordings / releases / whatever in MB (the
> syntax is [[recording:MBID|Name]].
>
> Once that's done, I'll +1 and we can finally RFV this! :)

I've fixed the links to the covers and added a non-space example to complete it.

+1

>> -----
>> jesus2099 × Ti = Tristan + patate12 ÷ saucisson7
>> mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099
>> mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts
>>
>> IMPORTANT : [hidden email] is a fake e-mail, I don’t receive anything in this.
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4292622.html
>> Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MusicBrainz-style mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
>
>
>
> --
> Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren



--
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Re: RFC-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
Thanks very much Réo !
I never know if it’s correct to hotlink pics…
I will make the RFV email in a day or two… or in a few days. ;)
Tristan.
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Re: RFC-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Nikki-3
It's been a lot more than a few days, you might want to send the RFV now.

Nikki

jesus2099 wrote:

> Thanks very much Réo !
> I never know if it’s correct to hotlink pics…
> I will make the RFV email in a day or two… or in a few days. ;)
> Tristan.
>
> -----
> jesus2099 × Ti = Tristan + patate12 ÷ saucisson7
> mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099
> mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts
>
> IMPORTANT : [hidden email] is a fake e-mail, I don’t receive anything in this.
> --
> View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4373497.html
> Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-style mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style


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Re: RFC-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Philip Jägenstedt
In reply to this post by jesus2099
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 20:38, jesus2099 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> (sorry for my possibly awful English below)
>
> I’d like to refine last change for the Vietnamese guideline page,
> specifically the punctuation part of it.

I object to this. From the last time this was discussed, it was fairly
obvious (to me) that the English style is by a large margin the
biggest both in print and online. See
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Talk:Style/Language/Vietnamese#Reference_.28no_space.29

Having just come back from vacation in Hanoi (thus the slow reply) I
can say (anecdotally) that every single item with print (mostly food)
that I have brought back uses English style punctuation.

I don't think it's feasible to defer to the cover for something that
is so hard to judge: how much space before the punctuation is enough
to justify a half-width space? The result will simply be inconsistent,
with most track lists not being vetted against a cover and editors
just picking the style they prefer.

There is a very simple solution to this, similar to the capitalization
problem: Use a Picard plugin to convert to the style you prefer while
leaving the database internally consistent and consistent with common
usage.

--
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RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
This goes to RFV-346.

Having at last the occasion to use one of my favourite typical quotes from Style ML :

A good people wrote
It’s been more than a week now, [one] people raised some issues but
nothing serious enough to cause a veto, so this can be considered
passed now. I’ll the to update the wiki either today or tomorrow.

Thanks!

[Tristan]

Sorry but I go to RFV the same way as your RFC did, back when I opposed it with much more official pictures than yours (you don’t bring anything new today).


Philip Jägenstedt wrote
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 20:38, jesus2099 <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don't think it's feasible to defer to the cover for something that
is so hard to judge: how much space before the punctuation is enough
to justify a half-width space? The result will simply be inconsistent,
with most track lists not being vetted against a cover and editors
just picking the style they prefer.
We don’t ask for something this difficult as narrow space or not.
If there is a space (whatever its size) just put a space.
I don’t think just following the very few printed recordings with punctuation is something too much difficult.
I don’t think there is a positive to write a rule out of the blue that does not exist in reality (my official pics tend to show the contrary).
I think We should still go on removing the punctuation part as it only concerns VERY few titles and that both ways DO co-exist peacefully.

As usual if someone wants to put up a rule for something that doesn’t exist,
one can apply the rule of choice in a Picard plugin.

Abiding with new rules, I created a ticket in addition to the wiki page
http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-98
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:jesus2099/Style/Language/Vietnamese

Hope we will stop losing time with this as soon as possible,
I was quite fair play to wait 2 weeks for your comment
as I didn’t have such privilege on former RFC.
Tristan.
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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Philip Jägenstedt
On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 09:54, jesus2099 <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This goes to RFV-346.
>
> Sorry but I go to RFV the same way as your RFC did, back when I opposed it
> with much more official pictures than yours (you don’t bring anything new
> today).

I veto this proposal.

To clarify for everyone who wasn't around, you did not participate in
the original RFC/RFV cycle, but did object after the fact:

http://lists.musicbrainz.org/pipermail/musicbrainz-style/2009-December/thread.html
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/pipermail/musicbrainz-style/2010-January/thread.html

I don't understand what "much more official" means, the evidence
collected in http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Talk:Style/Language/Vietnamese
clearly show that both styles have been used in teaching materials, by
the same publisher even. I suspect (but cannot prove) that spaces are
used more often in materials for younger students for clarity.

> Philip Jägenstedt wrote
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 20:38, jesus2099 &lt;hta3s836gzacohe@&gt; wrote:
>>
>> I don't think it's feasible to defer to the cover for something that
>> is so hard to judge: how much space before the punctuation is enough
>> to justify a half-width space? The result will simply be inconsistent,
>> with most track lists not being vetted against a cover and editors
>> just picking the style they prefer.
>
> We don’t ask for something this difficult as narrow space or not.
> If there is a space (whatever its size) just put a space.
> I don’t think just following the very few printed recordings with
> punctuation is something too much difficult.
> I don’t think there is a positive to write a rule out of the blue that does
> not exist in reality (my official pics tend to show the contrary).
> I think We should still go on removing the punctuation part as it only
> concerns VERY few titles and that both ways DO co-exist peacefully.
>
> As usual if someone wants to put up a rule for something that doesn’t exist,
> *one can apply the rule of choice in a Picard plugin*.

Consistency is, IMHO, one of the most valuable aspects of the MB
database, and I do not see why this issue should be treated any
differently from similar issues like capitalization, abbreviations,
etc. In these areas you will find diversity in the wild, but we still
have style guidelines.

Practically, if you and I look at the same cover scan and have
different preferences, in 20% of the cases we will disagree if there
is a space there or not. How should such editing conflicts be
resolved? That <http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:jesus2099/Style/Language/Vietnamese#Examples>
tries to distinguish between 3 different forms (no, narrow and full
space) only makes this problem worse.

If deemed necessary, I can ask my wife (currently in Hanoi) to contact
the ministry of education and ask what style is considered correct in
higher education. It's possible that they don't know or care, of
course. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to check what style
they use on their website <http://www.moet.gov.vn/>.

At this point I hope that our style leader will interrupt us. Tristan
and I have debated this for over 3 years and still don't agree, so
this issue will clearly not be resolved by us alone.

--
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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
Philip Jägenstedt wrote
To clarify for everyone who wasn't around, you did not participate in
the original RFC/RFV cycle, but did object after the fact
I strongly opposed it before it became RFV, either during RFC or before RFC.
You were aware of my opposition at the time of these ML posts (I was not subscribed to ML during RFC and I was away during the few laps of time of the RFV) because you linked my guideline version with space punctuation in RFC http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Capitalization-Standard-Vietnamese-tp1062411p1062411.html

I note that you are quite blatant not fair play here pretending I did not participate as you recognized I was the only one to have done so!
You even say « jesus2099 has put his MusicBrainz involvement on hold » in http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Capitalization-Standard-Vietnamese-tp1062411p1062413.html
as far as I remember I was pissed off by your arguing on this english style punctuation, it was such a lame way to say this and pass this in my back.


And just before the RFV, after nikki suggested a guideline without punctuation you said « I will go forward with a RFV for the no-punctuation version when I'm back from vacation » in http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Capitalization-Standard-Vietnamese-tp1062411p1062415.html
This is exactly what I am doing now and I seriously take this old post of yours as a +1.

Your veto is quite off topic. It would be acceptable if I was trying to enforce a space-punctuation (like what you did with no-space-punct).

The veto in its terms is not acceptable for a guideline that skips a disputed part.

OFF TOPIC replies to your invalid veto :

Philip Jägenstedt wrote
I don't understand what "much more official" means
More official means more official. My pics are from schoolbooks and from governamental propaganda.
Here is a new one if you want from this month in south
AN TOÀN GIAO THÔNG HẠNH PHÚC CỦA MỌI NHÀ ! (lol)
http://i.imgur.com/Ybtcu.jpg 

Philip Jägenstedt wrote
every single item with print (mostly food) that I have brought back uses English style punctuation.
If you want food, here you go (coffee, from my crappy phone camera)
http://i.imgur.com/akneU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RH2Sv.jpg


Philip Jägenstedt wrote
the evidence collected in http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Talk:Style/Language/Vietnamese clearly show that both styles have been used in teaching materials, by the same publisher even. I suspect (but cannot prove) that spaces are used more often in materials for younger students for clarity.
The only such picture (B2) is unfortunately missing. :p
In "space countries" like mine (france) and what I see in vietnam you see many spaces but not always because not everybody is aware (I’m currently reading a french book in a famous publisher wihtout spaces).
So the only fact that we can see spaces on lots of places in Vietnam (including all the official schoolbooks I’ve seen and do own myself) is different from a true english punct country like yours and england etc. where there is probably NEVER spaces to be seen.


Philip Jägenstedt wrote
Consistency is, IMHO, one of the most valuable aspects of the MB
Absolutely no need to be zealous for just a handful of tracks.
Are the english used in Japanese releases consistent ? no ? does anyone die from that ?

Philip Jägenstedt wrote
Practically, if you and I look at the same cover scan and have
different preferences, in 20% of the cases we will disagree if there
is a space there or not.
Is it so difficult to see a space ? or a no space ? be serious, please.
Just forget of anything like narrow space etc. It’s just a matter of SPACE=YES or SPACE=NO, OK ?
If you input SPACE I don’t care it’s not another sort of space. It’s what’s already done in french.

---- END OF THE OFF TOPIC CRAP ----

Philip Jägenstedt wrote
At this point I hope that our style leader will interrupt us. Tristan
and I have debated this for over 3 years and still don't agree, so
this issue will clearly not be resolved by us alone.
Exactly, style leaders should make this pass to eventually remove the disputed punctuation part and any controversy coming from this.

This is an english style no-spaces country → we see less than 5% of spaces before punctuation (not the case here).
We see many spaces (more than half, and majority in official stuff) and many no-spaces (I say some) → this is not an english style no-spaces country


Our bias
Maybe you see more no-space because you’re used to this because of your country.
Maybe you see more no-space in north vietnam.
Maybe I see more space because I’m used to this because of my country.
Maybe I see more space in south vietnam.
But there are lots of spaces so wa can’t say it’s english style at all.

foolip sauid « The short story is that there is no known "official" Vietnamese style. » in last RFV so we are removing the litigious punctuation part.

THE RFV IS NOT VETOED AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED.
If a style leader could now confirm or infirm this, thanks.
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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Philip Jägenstedt
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 19:47, jesus2099 <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Philip Jägenstedt wrote
>> To clarify for everyone who wasn't around, you did not participate in
>> the original RFC/RFV cycle, but did object after the fact
>
> I note that you are quite blatant not fair play here pretending I did not
> participate as you recognized I was the only one to have done so!

The history of the issue is available for everyone to inspect, so this
accusation carries little weight. There has been no foul play, so
let's just focus on the actual issue.

> Philip Jägenstedt wrote
>> I don't understand what "much more official" means
> More official means more official. My pics are from schoolbooks and from
> governamental propaganda.
> Here is a new one if you want from this month in south
> AN TOÀN GIAO THÔNG HẠNH PHÚC CỦA MỌI NHÀ ! (lol)
> http://i.imgur.com/Ybtcu.jpg

There are plenty of schoolbook examples in
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Talk:Style/Language/Vietnamese#From_an_Hanoi_Book_Store

If I were still in Hanoi I could go out and find more examples of the
no-spaces style in printed government materials, but I doubt that
would convince you. No one is disputing that the French style can
still be found, I'm just disputing that it's any more official.

> Philip Jägenstedt wrote
>> every single item with print (mostly food) that I have brought back uses
>> English style punctuation.
> If you want food, here you go (coffee, from my crappy phone camera)
> http://i.imgur.com/akneU.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/RH2Sv.jpg

Here are the 10 food items I found in my bag:
<http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Talk:Style/Language/Vietnamese#From_food_items>
As with the other 3 random-ish samples that I have taken, the no-space
style comes out on top, this time by a very large margin.

> Philip Jägenstedt wrote
>> the evidence collected in
>> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Talk:Style/Language/Vietnamese clearly show
>> that both styles have been used in teaching materials, by the same
>> publisher even. I suspect (but cannot prove) that spaces are used more
>> often in materials for younger students for clarity.
>>
>
> The only such picture (B2) is unfortunately missing. :p

No, there are plenty of pictures of teaching materials at the given
link, some of them from the publisher in question.

> Philip Jägenstedt wrote
>> Consistency is, IMHO, one of the most valuable aspects of the MB
> Absolutely no need to be zealous for just a handful of tracks.
> Are the english used in Japanese releases consistent ? no ? does anyone die
> from that ?

If you think arguing by analogy of
<http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Capitalization_Standard/Japanese_Releases_Clarification>
is useful, why aren't you suggesting that the capitalization of
Vietnamese releases be preserved as well?

> Philip Jägenstedt wrote
>> Practically, if you and I look at the same cover scan and have
>> different preferences, in 20% of the cases we will disagree if there
>> is a space there or not.
>>
> Is it so difficult to see a space ? or a no space ? be serious, please.
> Just forget of anything like narrow space etc. It’s just a matter of
> SPACE=YES or SPACE=NO, OK ?
> If you input SPACE I don’t care it’s not another sort of space. It’s what’s
> already done in french.

I don't know why you think I'm not being serious. How should edit
conflicts be resolved when one editor sees a half-width space and the
other just sees glyph kerning? This *will* happen if the Vietnamese
artists get enough attention from editors with opposite preferences.

> ---- END OF THE OFF TOPIC CRAP ----

Being abusive does not help your case.

> This is an english style no-spaces country → we see less than 5% of spaces
> before punctuation (not the case here).
> We see many spaces (more than half, and majority in official stuff) and many
> no-spaces (I say some) → this is not an english style no-spaces country

In any random sample I have taken the results have been clear:
no-spaces is the dominant style.

> THE RFV IS NOT VETOED AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED.
> If a style leader could now confirm or infirm this, thanks.

I am also looking forward to hearing from our style leader, and
suggest that we stop this thread until that time.

--
Philip Jägenstedt

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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
I often read here and there that you are willing to provide a plugin.
Well I don’t use Picard for tagging but if you do, here is your plugin
mytitle.replace(/(.+)(?: | | )(;|:|!|\?)/, "$1$2");
I personally don’t need any.
This is not a feature request for a plugin of any sort, this is a guideline fix for titles in MB data.

Philip Jägenstedt wrote
>> To clarify for everyone who wasn't around, you did not participate in
>> the original RFC/RFV cycle, but did object after the fact
>
> I note that you are quite blatant not fair play here pretending I did not
> participate as you recognized I was the only one to have done so!

The history of the issue is available for everyone to inspect, so this
accusation carries little weight. There has been no foul play, so
let's just focus on the actual issue.
The history is not in the archaic ML (however the ML history still has some interesting contradiction, see end of this post) where I was not subscribed at this time, it’s in our discussions around the RFC in wiki, edit notes and probably chat… it would have been so much more simmlpe in forums.
So yes the history shows that I did participate and that we opposed on this punctuation part of the RFC, part that was then (re-)added post-RFC (I gave links already).

[no-official-style]

Philip Jägenstedt wrote
No one is disputing that the French style can
still be found, I'm just disputing that it's any more official.
So you should agree not stating a rule on this in favour of one or the other.
It’s the purpose of this RFV.

Philip Jägenstedt wrote
No, there are plenty of pictures of teaching materials at the given
I wouldn’t say "plenty", I saw one in you bullet list. But I agree that no-space is seen in many prints too.
Philip Jägenstedt wrote
link, some of them from the publisher in question.
I wouldn’t say "some", there is supposed to be one, but it’s missing (B2) from the start.
Thanks very much for your new pics (back of CHIN-SU® and bilingual en-vi Bột bắp -corn wheat- have mixed-usage of space before punct btw).

We are not going to uppload maximum of pictures, it’s endless as I can find countless examples of space and I see you have the tendency to flood 10 more nospace pics each time.
I already said I saw space before punct on a daily basis in real life (not online if you want) Vietnam (south, if that has some importance to distinguish) including governamental stuff painted over meters wide panels.
go back to [no-official-style] above, there was and is no reason to favour your preferred style over the other. Or if one is absolutely needed (which is not imo), should be favoured the legacy in lack of official.

Philip Jägenstedt wrote
half-width space and the other just sees glyph kerning? This *will* happen if the Vietnamese artists get enough attention from editors with opposite preferences.
If they added kerning to render a space before a punctuation, then it’s a space before a punctuation, nothing less, nothing more. I don’t really get the tricky stuff here. Maybe I’m too simplistic mind. It’s easy to say Please just follow the back cover to people editing along preferences.

Philip Jägenstedt wrote
In any random sample I have taken the results have been clear:
no-spaces is the dominant style.
I guess that if you say this often enough, people will start to believe you (that actually happened already for last RFV), it’s the marketing methods.

repeat-1/auto-reverse :
So much space-before-punct in a country → Doubt says don’t advocate english style and this even insinuates that roots were probably with spaces.
No official language rule and mixed usage in real life → no MB rules.

MB should not substitute for linguists.
Even if you can gather a few vietnamese editors, we shouldn’t create lang-rules that are not based on actual written official guidelines from state reputed source (not some random forum guidelines or stuff like that).

Philip Jägenstedt wrote
If you think arguing by analogy of <Japanese_Releases_Clarification> 
is useful, why aren't you suggesting that the capitalization of
Vietnamese releases be preserved as well?
Feel free to remove all vietnamese guidelines if you want to do so.
Titles are often FunnyCaps on midi-saster releases from USA and
either Sentence caps or FULLCAPS for release coming from country.
But you fancy rules so much, I guess this was just irony.
You should work for ISO (notice the funny ISO 2000 :9001 spacing taken from bột bắp), and propose standards for the coffee spoon sizes, pencil official diameters, WC marks colours, etc. ;p
And anyway this was not a point on which we disagreed, it was the common part of our two proposals.

Thus your initial RFC was good to include sentence case :

first RFC/RFV history (chronological order)

RFC
http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Capitalization-Standard-Vietnamese-td1062411.html
Based on both seeing space and nospace fomr my and your wiki proposals.
nikki wrote
I would personally just make the capitalisation
part official since that's not disputed and say that currently both
styles of spacing are allowed.
kuno wrote
+1
*Ultimate RFC post before RFV*
http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Capitalization-Standard-Vietnamese-tp1062411p1062415.html
Philip Jägenstedt wrote
I will go forward with a RFV for the *no-punctuation version* when I'm back from vacation
Then, *RFV post* 180° u-turn back to :
http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFV-Capitalization-Standard-Vietnamese-td1062404.html
Philip Jägenstedt wrote
the style without space is predominant
… and the space is unilaterally forbidden.

My RFV now is removing this excessive punctuation chapter groundless claim that is not yet agreed and that was not agreed at the time it was unilaterally added post-RFC.
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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Nikki-3
In reply to this post by Philip Jägenstedt
Philip Jägenstedt wrote:
> Consistency is, IMHO, one of the most valuable aspects of the MB
> database, and I do not see why this issue should be treated any
> differently from similar issues like capitalization, abbreviations,
> etc. In these areas you will find diversity in the wild, but we still
> have style guidelines.

There are also plenty of (much more common) things we don't standardise
though and yet they're not seen as a big problem. I don't see any
particular *need* to standardise this. It affects a tiny amount of data
edited by a tiny number of people and neither style appears to be
incorrect anyway.

> Practically, if you and I look at the same cover scan and have
> different preferences, in 20% of the cases we will disagree if there
> is a space there or not. How should such editing conflicts be
> resolved? That <http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:jesus2099/Style/Language/Vietnamese#Examples>
> tries to distinguish between 3 different forms (no, narrow and full
> space) only makes this problem worse.

I agree that trying to distinguish between three different forms is
problematic (e.g. I don't agree that the space in the second example is
narrow). There are however cases where I think we would all agree there
is a space on the cover. For cases where it's debatable, we have a
voting system.

> If deemed necessary, I can ask my wife (currently in Hanoi) to contact
> the ministry of education and ask what style is considered correct in
> higher education. It's possible that they don't know or care, of
> course. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to check what style
> they use on their website <http://www.moet.gov.vn/>.

Although I suspect the answer is that they don't know or care, I would
certainly be interested in knowing what they have to say about it, if
she'd be willing to ask.

> At this point I hope that our style leader will interrupt us. Tristan
> and I have debated this for over 3 years and still don't agree, so
> this issue will clearly not be resolved by us alone.

Style leader*s*. There's still two of us. ;)

My summary:

There are two people who currently care about the problem.
One prefers spaces before the punctuation in question.
One prefers no spaces before the punctuation in question.
There are very few people editing Vietnamese in general.
There are no known native Vietnamese speakers editing (if there are, I
don't know who they are :)).

There appears to be no official style.
Both styles are found both in print and online.
We do not know why both styles are used (whether it's generational,
regional or simply personal preference).
The proportions vary depending on the material being looked at, but the
no space style seems to be more common.

Both styles are (unsurprisingly) found on CD covers.
The number of Vietnamese releases in general is still rather low.
The number of releases this affects is tiny (~30).

My conclusions:

There are not enough people who care to come to a majority decision
about which way to standardise it.
There are not enough people who care about the issue to maintain the
data according to such a guideline anyway.
There is not enough data affected to make standardisation particularly
useful right now.

Therefore I think the best choice right now is a compromise, i.e. to
allow both forms, which is effectively what this proposal is. If the
authorities in Vietnam ever publish an official style (something which
explicitly talks about how to write punctuation) or if we ever have a
community of Vietnamese editors who care about which style should be
used, then that would be a better time to revisit it.

Nikki

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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
Thanks nikki.
I guess we wait that both Foolip and I should agree this statement.
I want to emphasize that this statement is neither pro-foolip nor pro-jesus2099, it is neutral.

I agree, Nikki. I accept.
I already agreed to drop my expectations in my RFC, [back in january][2012-01-13]*.

Thanks, :)
Tristan.

(*) BTW I now see that I didn’t really explained well this expectation drop. This post of mine didn’t really explain that I agreed to completely abandon my punctuation chapter (it was only visible in the RFC wiki page, for the people who chatted IRC and who already read it and could [compare before/after][51289]).
Maybe that’s why Foolip then opposed straight away.

[2012-01-13]: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4292622.html
[51289]: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/?title=User:jesus2099/Style/Language/Vietnamese&diff=prev&oldid=51289
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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Philip Jägenstedt
In reply to this post by Nikki-3
On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 18:06, Nikki <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Philip Jägenstedt wrote:

>> If deemed necessary, I can ask my wife (currently in Hanoi) to contact
>> the ministry of education and ask what style is considered correct in
>> higher education. It's possible that they don't know or care, of
>> course. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to check what style
>> they use on their website <http://www.moet.gov.vn/>.
>
> Although I suspect the answer is that they don't know or care, I would
> certainly be interested in knowing what they have to say about it, if
> she'd be willing to ask.

Thanks for your feedback, Nikki,

I've asked my wife to help me research this matter again. She does not
think that the Ministry of Education would be able to help us
determine offical-ness, since their mission is to teach Vietnamese,
not regulate it. It is also not their mission to answer random
questions from the public (my bad), so they're unlikely to escalate
the issue to the required level to get a stamped official answer.
However, she was able to find no less than 3 different style guides
for Vietnamese, all explicitly requiring the no-spaces style:

1. http://du-an-most.hanoilug.org/MostWiki/QuyUocChinhTa#D.2BHqU-u_c.2BAOI-u

This is from the Hanoi GNU/Linux Users Group. Judging by the
references at the bottom, it is very well researched and trustworthy.

2. http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cẩm_nang_về_cách_biên_soạn#D.E1.BA.A5u_c.C3.A2u

When I last looked I couldn't find any official style of the
Vietnamese Wikipedia, but here it is. That the many editors of the
Vietnamese Wikipedia have collectively agreed on the issue is IMHO
strong support for our current guideline.

3. http://hocmarketing.net/soan-thao-van-ban-chuan-viet-nam/

This is from marketing training material. I think that it doesn't have
the weight of the two above sources, but it does show that marketing
people (not only geeks) have also thought about the issue and come to
the same conclusion.

(http://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb29-1/tb91thanh-vntex.pdf was also
mentioned in the original RFC/RFV cycle, but it merely notes that "the
case without a space before punctuation is dominant.")

> There are not enough people who care to come to a majority decision
> about which way to standardise it.

We have actually already standardized it, but you are correct that we
cannot re-decide the issue by voting when only I and Tristan really
care.

> There are not enough people who care about the issue to maintain the
> data according to such a guideline anyway.

Given the small amount of data it only really takes one person. I have
a script that I wrote after the guideline was originally accepted that
finds instances in need of attention.

> There is not enough data affected to make standardisation particularly
> useful right now.

The data we have is already in line with the guideline we have, with
only 1 exception found by my script:

http://musicbrainz.org/release/0c7c63b8-d9dd-4713-ac69-33204f2b419d

> Therefore I think the best choice right now is a compromise, i.e. to
> allow both forms, which is effectively what this proposal is. If the
> authorities in Vietnam ever publish an official style (something which
> explicitly talks about how to write punctuation) or if we ever have a
> community of Vietnamese editors who care about which style should be
> used, then that would be a better time to revisit it.

Given that our guideline is supported by ample evidence and now 3
actual Vietnamese style guides, I don't think that we should weaken
it. Should we eventually decide more generally to retain variations in
capitalization, typos and punctuation in tracklists then things may be
different, but for standardized titles the guideline we have is as
correct as it will ever be on this issue, IMHO.

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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
This post was updated on .
As I said

jesus2099 wrote
MB should not substitute for linguists.
Even if you can gather a few vietnamese editors, we shouldn’t create lang-rules that are not based on actual written official guidelines from state reputed source (not some random forum guidelines or stuff like that).

{…}

I already said I saw space before punct on a daily basis in real life (not online if you want) Vietnam (south, if that has some importance to distinguish) including governamental stuff painted over meters wide panels.
« space before punct on a daily basis in real life » + « not some random forum guidelines or stuff like that »
We shouldn't just reproduce some online guy choice.

Philip Jägenstedt wrote
1. http://du-an-most.hanoilug.org/MostWiki/QuyUocChinhTa#D.2BHqU-u_c.2BAOI-u
This is from the Hanoi GNU/Linux Users Group. Judging by the
references at the bottom, it is very well researched and trustworthy.
GNU/Linux Users Group is not an official stuff. It's just like some wiki rules.
The only related reference for this part is TCVN 6909:2001 (tiêu chuẩn Việt Nam, tiêu chuẩn = standard indeed) chapter 5.1.6. Which is only a punctuation list without a word on how we use them.
They mainly focus on avoiding really basics but often seen mistakes by vietnamese people : forgetting spaces after ,. and between sentences.

Philip Jägenstedt wrote
2. http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cẩm_nang_về_cách_biên_soạn#D.E1.BA.A5u_c.C3.A2u
When I last looked I couldn't find any official style of the
Vietnamese Wikipedia, but here it is. That the many editors of the
Vietnamese Wikipedia have collectively agreed on the issue is IMHO
strong support for our current guideline.
Same remark as gnu wiki on their officialness and no reference is given.
Some guys over there discussion do use space before !?
http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thảo_luận_Wikipedia:Cẩm_nang_về_cách_biên_soạn
They mostly came from USA when vi.wikipedia started at least, where they also use FunnyCaps

Philip Jägenstedt wrote
3. http://hocmarketing.net/soan-thao-van-ban-chuan-viet-nam/
This is from marketing training material. I think that it doesn't have
the weight of the two above sources, but it does show that marketing
people (not only geeks) have also thought about the issue and come to
the same conclusion.
Marketing now, please. The advertising people are low cultured idiot crooks and liars, the plague of our societies.
And, like gnu, they focus on same very basics mistakes with ., as well as incorrectly spacing brackets. In their bad examples they forget to speak about !? etc.

Philip Jägenstedt wrote
We have actually already standardized it, but you are correct that we
cannot re-decide the issue by voting when only I and Tristan really
care.
The first RFC was passed by force, this should be revert.
Your detestable marketing method of stating over and over that the first RFC was legitimate and hat I didn’t participate nor object it, could unfortunately work.

Philip Jägenstedt wrote
The data we have is already in line with the guideline we have, with
only 1 exception found by my script:
Of course it is because as soon as the forced RFC passed you went through my releases to rename them ← This is how I learnt that the RFC force-passed actually, through a foolip edit in my collection.
PS. my spaces before punctuation in my releases actually come from the printed stuff in hands.
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