RFC-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
If you think it is appropriate to link online stuff (I don’t).
The rules I’ve found on forums wiki etc. are all quite copy from/to eachothers, even the samples often match.
But here is for you.

A random guy as you like them, called nqd, said :
http://dragula.org/blogs/475#comment-366
translates to approx. : « In several foreign countries they don’t put space before .,:;!?. but here in VN :
- We don’t put space before ,.
- We do put space before !?:; »

Then someone said « come on, even you did type without spaces »
Then nqd replied that « I have checked all my school books -all domains- before commenting, they do put space »

But internet is just full of copy/paste crap. And MB is just another one of them, with that forced RFC.
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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Rupert Swarbrick
In reply to this post by jesus2099
jesus2099 & Philip Jägenstedt wrote:
... lots.

Guys, you have been discussing this for quite some time, frantically
scoring points against each other and arguing that the other is not
following a reputed source. You then both agreed that you should get
input from a style leader.

Nikki basically pointed out that this really doesn't matter to
MusicBrainz: there are very few releases where the question makes any
difference, and these have been de facto standardised.

As such, your continuing discussion in this forum is off topic, as well
as bitter and unpleasant. Maybe it's time to agree to disagree?


Rupert

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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
But agreed with what ?
I agree if agreeing means that I can revert my releases to what’s on the cover.
I already agreed with Nikki.
Tristan.
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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Philip Jägenstedt
In reply to this post by Rupert Swarbrick
On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 15:35, Rupert Swarbrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> jesus2099 & Philip Jägenstedt wrote:
> ... lots.
>
> Guys, you have been discussing this for quite some time, frantically
> scoring points against each other and arguing that the other is not
> following a reputed source. You then both agreed that you should get
> input from a style leader.
>
> Nikki basically pointed out that this really doesn't matter to
> MusicBrainz: there are very few releases where the question makes any
> difference, and these have been de facto standardised.
>
> As such, your continuing discussion in this forum is off topic, as well
> as bitter and unpleasant. Maybe it's time to agree to disagree?

Thank you for interrupting us. While this is the appropriate forum for
RFC/RFV of style guidelines, I do apologize for the state of
discourse. I have tried very hard to stay on topic and not do
point-by-point replies for every detail I disagree with, but have not
always succeeded.

I believe that the references and "studies" I have documented will
stand up to scrutiny by third parties and that the conclusion is
clear. The RFV has gotten its V, so I will not reply further unless
explicitly asked to do so by one of our style leaders.

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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 9:13 PM, Philip Jägenstedt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 15:35, Rupert Swarbrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> jesus2099 & Philip Jägenstedt wrote:
>> ... lots.
>>
>> Guys, you have been discussing this for quite some time, frantically
>> scoring points against each other and arguing that the other is not
>> following a reputed source. You then both agreed that you should get
>> input from a style leader.
>>
>> Nikki basically pointed out that this really doesn't matter to
>> MusicBrainz: there are very few releases where the question makes any
>> difference, and these have been de facto standardised.
>>
>> As such, your continuing discussion in this forum is off topic, as well
>> as bitter and unpleasant. Maybe it's time to agree to disagree?
>
> Thank you for interrupting us. While this is the appropriate forum for
> RFC/RFV of style guidelines, I do apologize for the state of
> discourse. I have tried very hard to stay on topic and not do
> point-by-point replies for every detail I disagree with, but have not
> always succeeded.
>
> I believe that the references and "studies" I have documented will
> stand up to scrutiny by third parties and that the conclusion is
> clear. The RFV has gotten its V, so I will not reply further unless
> explicitly asked to do so by one of our style leaders.

I seriously think a clash so strong about such a minor issue by two
editors who are not even native speakers of the language is quite
absurd. The most obvious choice, seeing that there is a not negligible
minority of uses of space before punctuation and that it doesn't seem
to be seen as a wrong use, is to follow the cover. As jesus said, for
each one's own collection those can be converted into what each of you
see as right.


> --
> Philip Jägenstedt
>
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Re: RFC-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
In reply to this post by jesus2099
Hello,

OK, as style leaders agreed and as the clock is ticking as we have extended the duration of both the RFC and RFV quite too long, I think this RFV [1] should pass, it will allow some editing and having some reference to tell editors that is more "as is" friendly.

Foolip proposed another version [2] (putting english style on meta entities -work, release-group, recording- and let "as is" on tagging entities -tracklist, release-) but, as I will not have much time for some time, I think it’s preferable that my RFV passes and I will think of the new proposition when possible (as soon as possible, which won’t be so soon, sorry). I will be happy to participate in this next RFC, which is more acceptable than the old one but I don’t know yet about it very much… sorry.

Can style leaders tell me what to do when RFV passes ? Me doing something ?

Tristan.

[1]: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:jesus2099/Style/Language/Vietnamese
[2]: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Foolip/Capitalization_Standard_Vietnamese
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Re: RFC-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Kuno Woudt
On 30/03/12 14:00, jesus2099 wrote:
> Hello,
>
> OK, as style leaders agreed and as the clock is ticking as we have extended
> the duration of both the RFC and RFV quite too long, I think this RFV [1]
> should pass, it will allow some editing and having some reference to tell
> editors that is more "as is" friendly.

I believe RFV-346 was vetoed by foolip.  Why should it suddenly pass now?
Have I missed something?

-- kuno / warp.

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Re: RFC-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
Yes, it seem you have missed the too style leaders’ opinions.
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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
In reply to this post by jesus2099
Kuno, citing the two style leaders.

http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4425267.html
Nikki wrote
There are also plenty of (much more common) things we don't standardise
though and yet they're not seen as a big problem. I don't see any
particular *need* to standardise this. It affects a tiny amount of data
edited by a tiny number of people and neither style appears to be
incorrect anyway.

I think the best choice right now is a compromise, i.e. to
allow both forms, which is effectively what this proposal is.
http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4435854.html
Réo wrote
I seriously think a clash so strong about such a minor issue by two
editors who are not even native speakers of the language is quite
absurd.

The most obvious choice, seeing that there is a not negligible
minority of uses of space before punctuation and that it doesn't seem
to be seen as a wrong use, is to follow the cover.
So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can eventually apply this compromise ? Clock is ticking… :)

Tristan / jesus2099
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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
UP http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html

So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can eventually apply this compromise ? (2)
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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Philip Jägenstedt
On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 02:00, jesus2099 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> UP
> http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html
>
> So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can
> eventually apply this compromise ? (2)

If both of us find
<http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Foolip/Capitalization_Standard_Vietnamese>
acceptable, can't we simply skip directly to RFC/RFV of that proposal?

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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 1:12 PM, Philip Jägenstedt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 02:00, jesus2099 <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> UP
>> http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html
>>
>> So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can
>> eventually apply this compromise ? (2)
>
> If both of us find
> <http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Foolip/Capitalization_Standard_Vietnamese>
> acceptable, can't we simply skip directly to RFC/RFV of that proposal?

If both of you do, you certainly can.

> --
> Philip Jägenstedt
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-style mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style



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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099

From foolip http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Capitalization-Standard-Vietnamese-track-release-titles-tp4596130.html

Philip Jägenstedt wrote
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Foolip/Capitalization_Standard_Vietnamese
« Do not include space before punctuation in recording, release group or work titles. »

I believe this would be the first guideline applying different rules
to track and recording titles since RFC-333: Unify track/recording
guidelines.

--
Philip Jägenstedt
I do not think we need to make an exception to RFC-333 (keep same recs=tracks).
I do not agree with RFC-333 but they are contradicting.
Why not applying the compromise on all entities the same way ?
Keeping the oldest found form if multiple uses of works (rare),  recs (almost never) and RG (never), instead of forcing an English style.
We should apply the most simple RFV-346.
Tristan.
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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
In reply to this post by jesus2099
UP http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html

So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can eventually apply this compromise ? (3)
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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Philip Jägenstedt
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 9:58 AM, jesus2099 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> UP
> http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html
>
> So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can
> eventually apply this compromise ? (3)

Which compromise is it you want to apply? You didn't approve of the
one I suggested and I'm not aware of any other.

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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
I speak of course of this RFV-346 compromise. :)
Which is a compromise between my "always space" and your "never space".

The problem with your more recent version (which adds "never space on recordings, release-groups and works" and which is then less of a compromise) is the conflict with RFV-333.
RFV-333. http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFV-333-Unify-track-recording-guidelines-tp3722980p3750016.html
We could set your version later, when RFV-333 is abandoned for instance.
Or can we have two conflicting RFV ?
If so, I would prefer a change from
« Never space on recordings, release-groups and works. »
to
« Never space on recordings, release-groups and works WHEN THERE IS INCONSISTENCY. »
Tristan. ;)

Philip Jägenstedt wrote
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 9:58 AM, jesus2099 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> UP
> http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html
>
> So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can
> eventually apply this compromise ? (3)

Which compromise is it you want to apply? You didn't approve of the
one I suggested and I'm not aware of any other.

--
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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 10:21 AM, jesus2099 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I speak of course of this RFV-346 compromise. :)
> Which is a compromise between my "always space" and your "never space".
>
> The problem with your more recent version (which adds "never space on
> recordings, release-groups and works" and which is then less of a
> compromise) is the conflict with RFV-333.

RFV-333 was a one-off; its intention was to unify the guidelines *in
that moment*, not to prevent them from ever being different (for
example, guidelines for live recordings are already different, since
the recordings are never supposed to have (live) in their names.

> RFV-333.
> http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFV-333-Unify-track-recording-guidelines-tp3722980p3750016.html
> We could set your version later, when RFV-333 is abandoned for instance.
> Or can we have two conflicting RFV ?
> If so, I would prefer a change from
> « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works. »
> to
> « Never space on recordings, release-groups and works WHEN THERE IS
> INCONSISTENCY. »
> Tristan. ;)
>
>
> Philip Jägenstedt wrote
>>
>> On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 9:58 AM, jesus2099 &lt;hta3s836gzacohe@&gt; wrote:
>>> UP
>>> http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html
>>>
>>> So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can
>>> eventually apply this compromise ? (3)
>>
>> Which compromise is it you want to apply? You didn't approve of the
>> one I suggested and I'm not aware of any other.
>>
>> --
>> Philip Jägenstedt
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MusicBrainz-style mailing list
>> MusicBrainz-style@.musicbrainz
>> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
>>
>
>
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>
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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

jesus2099
In reply to this post by Philip Jägenstedt
Here is my re-phrase as now RFV-333 can be bypassed (according to Réo) :

I speak of this RFV-346 compromise. :)
Which is a compromise between my "always space" and your "never space".

The problem with your more recent version is that it’s less of a compromise as it systematically chooses the "never space" on a big amount of entities ("never space on recordings, release-groups and works"), letting the "as is" style on tracklists only.

This is why I prefer the compromise version (RFV-346).
Or, to the limit, your new version with the following change could be reasonably acceptable too :  
from
« "Never space" on recordings, release-groups and works. »
to
« "Never space" on recordings, release-groups and works IF AND ONLY WHEN THERE IS INCONSISTENCY BETWEEN SEVERAL RELEASES/EDITIONS/VERSIONS/ETC. »

Tristan. ;)

Philip Jägenstedt wrote
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 9:58 AM, jesus2099 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> UP
> http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html
>
> So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can
> eventually apply this compromise ? (3)

Which compromise is it you want to apply? You didn't approve of the
one I suggested and I'm not aware of any other.

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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 3:44 PM, jesus2099 <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Here is my re-phrase as now RFV-333 can be bypassed (according to Réo) :
>
> I speak of this RFV-346 compromise. :)
> Which is a compromise between my "always space" and your "never space".
>
> The problem with your more recent version is that it’s less of a compromise
> as it systematically chooses the "never space" on a big amount of entities
> ("never space on recordings, release-groups and works"), letting the "as is"
> style on tracklists only.
>
> This is why I prefer the compromise version (RFV-346).
> Or, to the limit, your new version with the following change could be
> reasonably acceptable too :
> from
> « "Never space" on recordings, release-groups and works. »
> to
> « "Never space" on recordings, release-groups and works IF AND ONLY WHEN
> THERE IS INCONSISTENCY BETWEEN SEVERAL RELEASES/EDITIONS/VERSIONS/ETC. »

This sounds reasonable to me, and easy to apply too (follow cover
unless covers disagree).

> Tristan. ;)
>
>
> Philip Jägenstedt wrote
>>
>> On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 9:58 AM, jesus2099 &lt;hta3s836gzacohe@&gt; wrote:
>>> UP
>>> http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4557976.html
>>>
>>> So, Nikki, Nicolás, could this RFV be settled down and pass so we can
>>> eventually apply this compromise ? (3)
>>
>> Which compromise is it you want to apply? You didn't approve of the
>> one I suggested and I'm not aware of any other.
>>
>> --
>> Philip Jägenstedt
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MusicBrainz-style mailing list
>> MusicBrainz-style@.musicbrainz
>> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
>>
>
>
> -----
> mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099
> mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts
> black hole : *@jetable.org (stuff sent there won’t reach anyone)
> crap® : jesus2099, Ti, Tristan, patate12, saucisson7, so6on, so6on7, TRISTANVS, M. PATATE, j2-, J2♥, Trí Tân, 鳥, トリ29, TD., iCAT, …
> --
> View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-346-Style-Language-Vietnamese-Punctuation-change-tp4226419p4633926.html
> Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: RFV-346. Style/Language/Vietnamese : Punctuation change

Philip Jägenstedt
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 3:44 PM, jesus2099 <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Here is my re-phrase as now RFV-333 can be bypassed (according to Réo) :
>>
>> I speak of this RFV-346 compromise. :)
>> Which is a compromise between my "always space" and your "never space".
>>
>> The problem with your more recent version is that it’s less of a compromise
>> as it systematically chooses the "never space" on a big amount of entities
>> ("never space on recordings, release-groups and works"), letting the "as is"
>> style on tracklists only.
>>
>> This is why I prefer the compromise version (RFV-346).
>> Or, to the limit, your new version with the following change could be
>> reasonably acceptable too :
>> from
>> « "Never space" on recordings, release-groups and works. »
>> to
>> « "Never space" on recordings, release-groups and works IF AND ONLY WHEN
>> THERE IS INCONSISTENCY BETWEEN SEVERAL RELEASES/EDITIONS/VERSIONS/ETC. »
>
> This sounds reasonable to me, and easy to apply too (follow cover
> unless covers disagree).

I could live with that as well.

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