RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

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RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

Deanna Earley
Songs are sometimes written with a dedication to another artist, but MB
doesn't seem to have any way to mark this yet.
Can a "in homage to" relationship be added to works?

Other examples are:
• In memory of ...
• A tribute to ...
• In homage to ...
• Dedicated to ...

http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-203

Does anyone have any thoughts in this or a better way to do it?

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web:    http://www.earlsoft.co.uk
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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

Frederic Da Vitoria
The tricky part here is that the person the work is dedicated to could be another artist recorded in MB, as well as someone who should never be in MB. In the first case, it would be nice to be able to link to the MB Artist (which would mean creating a new AR for dedications), but in the second case there would be no Artist to link to (and I don't think MB can currently manage single-sided ARs). Note that I am not saying dedications should not be recorded, only that I don't know how to solve this little technical problem.


2013/4/1 Deanna Earley <[hidden email]>
Songs are sometimes written with a dedication to another artist, but MB
doesn't seem to have any way to mark this yet.
Can a "in homage to" relationship be added to works?

Other examples are:
• In memory of ...
• A tribute to ...
• In homage to ...
• Dedicated to ...

http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-203

Does anyone have any thoughts in this or a better way to do it?

--
Deanna Earley ([hidden email])

web:    http://www.earlsoft.co.uk
phone:  <a href="tel:%2B44%20%280%29780%208369596" value="+447808369596">+44 (0)780 8369596

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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren



On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 10:38 PM, Frederic Da Vitoria <[hidden email]> wrote:
The tricky part here is that the person the work is dedicated to could be another artist recorded in MB, as well as someone who should never be in MB.

Who's "someone who should never be in MB"? Dedicatees sound at least as related to music as A&R people and photographers and other things we already store...

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren

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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

Frederic Da Vitoria
You are right, we could decide that if someone has a work dedicated to her/him,then he meets the condition for being stored in MB. This would allow us to create the AR.


2013/4/1 Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren <[hidden email]>



On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 10:38 PM, Frederic Da Vitoria <[hidden email]> wrote:
The tricky part here is that the person the work is dedicated to could be another artist recorded in MB, as well as someone who should never be in MB.

Who's "someone who should never be in MB"? Dedicatees sound at least as related to music as A&R people and photographers and other things we already store...

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren

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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

Rachel Dwight

On Apr 1, 2013, at 3:01 PM, Frederic Da Vitoria <[hidden email]> wrote:

You are right, we could decide that if someone has a work dedicated to her/him,then he meets the condition for being stored in MB. This would allow us to create the AR.



+1 on these grounds.

2013/4/1 Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren <[hidden email]>



On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 10:38 PM, Frederic Da Vitoria <[hidden email]> wrote:
The tricky part here is that the person the work is dedicated to could be another artist recorded in MB, as well as someone who should never be in MB.

Who's "someone who should never be in MB"? Dedicatees sound at least as related to music as A&R people and photographers and other things we already store...


A&R people are EXTREMELY relevant. They're responsible for locating and booking the musicians.

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren

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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

Dainis Jonītis
In reply to this post by Deanna Earley
+1


On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Deanna Earley <[hidden email]> wrote:
Songs are sometimes written with a dedication to another artist, but MB
doesn't seem to have any way to mark this yet.
Can a "in homage to" relationship be added to works?

Other examples are:
• In memory of ...
• A tribute to ...
• In homage to ...
• Dedicated to ...

http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-203

Does anyone have any thoughts in this or a better way to do it?

--
Deanna Earley ([hidden email])

web:    http://www.earlsoft.co.uk
phone:  <a href="tel:%2B44%20%280%29780%208369596" value="+447808369596">+44 (0)780 8369596

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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

jesus2099
In reply to this post by Deanna Earley
+1
 PATATE12   jesus2099   GOLD MASTER KING   FAKE E-MAIL ADDRESS 
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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

LordSputnik
In reply to this post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
"Dedicated to my awesome brother Ricky"
"Dedicated to my girlfriend"
"Dedicated to my Mum and Dad"

Are some examples of dedications where we probably wouldn't want to store the second artist.

I see no way of handling these cases in the current relationships system apart from using annotations to store this information.
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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

symphonick
2013/4/2 LordSputnik <[hidden email]>
"Dedicated to my awesome brother Ricky"
"Dedicated to my girlfriend"
"Dedicated to my Mum and Dad"

Are some examples of dedications where we probably wouldn't want to store
the second artist.

I see no way of handling these cases in the current relationships system
apart from using annotations to store this information.
 
True. Another example:
 Bernie [Taupin]: "These words are dedicated to my family and friends whose love identifies them in their own eyes"

otherwise +1 for "dedication"

/symphonick

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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

Rachel Dwight


Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 2, 2013, at 8:22 AM, symphonick <[hidden email]> wrote:

2013/4/2 LordSputnik <[hidden email]>
"Dedicated to my awesome brother Ricky"
"Dedicated to my girlfriend"
"Dedicated to my Mum and Dad"

Are some examples of dedications where we probably wouldn't want to store
the second artist.

I see no way of handling these cases in the current relationships system
apart from using annotations to store this information.
 
True. Another example:
 Bernie [Taupin]: "These words are dedicated to my family and friends whose love identifies them in their own eyes"

otherwise +1 for "dedication"


Yeah, I'd add only the people whose names could be tracked down under this AR for now.

/symphonick
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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

Rachel Dwight
In reply to this post by symphonick
I just remembered something: could this AR be extended to releases as well? I know of releases who were dedicated to people or groups, and even in some cases paying homage to entire releases (e.g. Ween's 12 Golden Country Greats pays homage to Throbbing Gristle's 20 Jazz Funk Greats).
On Apr 2, 2013, at 8:22 AM, symphonick <[hidden email]> wrote:

2013/4/2 LordSputnik <[hidden email]>
"Dedicated to my awesome brother Ricky"
"Dedicated to my girlfriend"
"Dedicated to my Mum and Dad"

Are some examples of dedications where we probably wouldn't want to store
the second artist.

I see no way of handling these cases in the current relationships system
apart from using annotations to store this information.
 
True. Another example:
 Bernie [Taupin]: "These words are dedicated to my family and friends whose love identifies them in their own eyes"

otherwise +1 for "dedication"

/symphonick
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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

LordSputnik
Yes, I'd support it for releases too, but this relationship should still only be used where the dedication is to someone within the music industry (except of course the release-release version of the relationship).
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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 2:40 AM, LordSputnik <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes, I'd support it for releases too, but this relationship should still only
be used where the dedication is to someone within the music industry (except
of course the release-release version of the relationship).

Heh. What's the music industry though? Is a 18th Century duke or count in whose court a composer worked part of the music industry? For his time, I'd say so, but it's a weird definition :)

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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

LordSputnik
Well, an artist that's already in MB for some other reason, or if not, one that could conceivably be included in MB for some other reason.

What I'm saying is, I don't think dedicatees should be added as artists just because they're written down as dedicatees.
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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

Rachel Dwight

On Apr 3, 2013, at 7:16 PM, LordSputnik <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well, an artist that's already in MB for some other reason, or if not, one
> that could conceivably be included in MB for some other reason.
>
> What I'm saying is, I don't think dedicatees should be added as artists just
> because they're written down as dedicatees.
>

That shouldn't be a problem, since most artists dedicate their creations to someone they know. We can use existing ARs for most of those relationships (with a few exceptions, mostly for familial relations for which we have yet to devise a plan).

>
> --
> View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-Add-a-In-homage-to-relationship-to-works-tp4650740p4650851.html
> Sent from the MusicBrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

Sheamus Patt
On 04/03/2013 08:22 PM, Rachel Dwight wrote:
> That shouldn't be a problem, since most artists dedicate their
> creations to someone they know. We can use existing ARs for most of
> those relationships (with a few exceptions, mostly for familial
> relations for which we have yet to devise a plan).

Just for discussion, then, I'll throw in an exception (which I used for
a completely different reason in this discussion list not long ago.
Elton John's "Candle in the Wind 1997"
http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/1b7f9608-4d65-3daf-ae54-efa7645d92ad which
he dedicated to Princess Diana, someone who has no particular
relationship with the music industry.

Seems I was wrong though - "Diana - Princess of Wales" is already an MB
"artist"
http://musicbrainz.org/artist/5c216e1a-cfda-445a-b6cd-c30b90b12bb8 .
There does seem to be prior art for including notables who aren't
typically considered musicians or involved with the music industry. I do
agree that we shouldn't be putting in "artists" just for a "homage to"
relationship, though. Where will it end?


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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

symphonick
2013/4/4 Sheamus Patt <[hidden email]>
On 04/03/2013 08:22 PM, Rachel Dwight wrote:
> That shouldn't be a problem, since most artists dedicate their
> creations to someone they know. We can use existing ARs for most of
> those relationships (with a few exceptions, mostly for familial
> relations for which we have yet to devise a plan).

Just for discussion, then, I'll throw in an exception (which I used for
a completely different reason in this discussion list not long ago.
Elton John's "Candle in the Wind 1997"
http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/1b7f9608-4d65-3daf-ae54-efa7645d92ad which
he dedicated to Princess Diana, someone who has no particular
relationship with the music industry.

Seems I was wrong though - "Diana - Princess of Wales" is already an MB
"artist"
http://musicbrainz.org/artist/5c216e1a-cfda-445a-b6cd-c30b90b12bb8 .
There does seem to be prior art for including notables who aren't
typically considered musicians or involved with the music industry. I do
agree that we shouldn't be putting in "artists" just for a "homage to"
relationship, though. Where will it end?


I think you should be able to add people you need to use this AR. I imagine many (most?) people who get works dedicated to them are not involved in the "music industry".
Maybe it's just the term "artist" that's the problem?

/symphonick

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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

symphonick

2013/4/4 symphonick <[hidden email]>
2013/4/4 Sheamus Patt <[hidden email]>
On 04/03/2013 08:22 PM, Rachel Dwight wrote:
> That shouldn't be a problem, since most artists dedicate their
> creations to someone they know. We can use existing ARs for most of
> those relationships (with a few exceptions, mostly for familial
> relations for which we have yet to devise a plan).

Just for discussion, then, I'll throw in an exception (which I used for
a completely different reason in this discussion list not long ago.
Elton John's "Candle in the Wind 1997"
http://musicbrainz.org/release-group/1b7f9608-4d65-3daf-ae54-efa7645d92ad which
he dedicated to Princess Diana, someone who has no particular
relationship with the music industry.

Seems I was wrong though - "Diana - Princess of Wales" is already an MB
"artist"
http://musicbrainz.org/artist/5c216e1a-cfda-445a-b6cd-c30b90b12bb8 .
There does seem to be prior art for including notables who aren't
typically considered musicians or involved with the music industry. I do
agree that we shouldn't be putting in "artists" just for a "homage to"
relationship, though. Where will it end?


I think you should be able to add people you need to use this AR. I imagine many (most?) people who get works dedicated to them are not involved in the "music industry".
Maybe it's just the term "artist" that's the problem?


Anyway, this guideline will be about how to connect works with artist using this AR. Limitations for who you can enter in MusicBrainz should probably be in another guideline.

/symphonick

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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

monxton
In reply to this post by Sheamus Patt
On 04/04/2013 02:06, Sheamus Patt wrote:

> Seems I was wrong though - "Diana - Princess of Wales" is already an MB "artist"
> http://musicbrainz.org/artist/5c216e1a-cfda-445a-b6cd-c30b90b12bb8 .

Yes, but those credits are just wrong:
http://musicbrainz.org/release/97a5f481-be87-44be-bff1-786ce35b7d3a





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Re: RFC: Add a "In homage to" relationship to works

monxton
In reply to this post by Deanna Earley
On 01/04/2013 19:48, Deanna Earley wrote:
> Songs are sometimes written with a dedication to another artist, but MB
> doesn't seem to have any way to mark this yet.
> Can a "in homage to" relationship be added to works?

We do already have the "tribute to" relationship for release groups. So
I think this should use the same form of words.


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