RFC: Missing primary types for Asian releases

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RFC: Missing primary types for Asian releases

Mihai Spinei
Hi,

I made this ticket http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-282 in hopes to get 2 types I often find myself mis-categorising as EPs and Singles 

In Asia, particularly Japan and South Korea, CD albums which have up to 6 songs are called Mini-Albums, and 8+ songs - Full Albums. In iTunes Mini-Albums are set as EPs. For reference, the Japanese wiki has this entry for Mini-Albums: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%9F%E3%83%8B%E3%82%A2%E3%83%AB%E3%83%90%E3%83%A0

Also, singles are usually up to 2 songs. Sometimes, in Asian countries, singles which contain 4 songs (2 songs + their karaoke versions) are called just singles. Singles with more than 2 songs are called Maxi-Singles, apparently in West as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxi_single

Adding these would help a lot to categorise properly asian releases (at least with Japanese ones). As an example, take a look at this discography page: http://awoi.jp/discography.html <— these guys classify their releases as Mini-Albums and Maxi-Singles a lot. With current primary types, I have to use EP and Single instead, which is not consistent with artist’s data.

Thanks ^^;


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Re: RFC: Missing primary types for Asian releases

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
Expected RFV date is Jan 22.

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Re: RFC: Missing primary types for Asian releases

Calvin Walton-2
In reply to this post by Mihai Spinei
On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 02:05 +0900, Mihai Spinei wrote:
> Hi,  
>
> I made this ticket http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-282 in
> hopes to get 2 types I often find myself mis-categorising as EPs and
> Singles  

First of all, before I +1 this, I would like to see what you plan to do
as documentation updates. In particular, you'll have to make changes to
this page:
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Release_Group/Type
To explain to people what each type is, and when it should be used.

(I normally do this by making a copy of the wiki page in my User
namespace and making changes there to show what the final page will look
like.)

> In Asia, particularly Japan and South Korea, CD albums which have up
> to 6 songs are called Mini-Albums, and 8+ songs - Full Albums. In
> iTunes Mini-Albums are set as EPs. For reference, the Japanese wiki
> has this entry for Mini-Albums: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%9F
> %E3%83%8B%E3%82%A2%E3%83%AB%E3%83%90%E3%83%A0

I am definitely for the addition of a Mini-Album type; I've come across
this a lot in Japanese editing.

> Also, singles are usually up to 2 songs. Sometimes, in Asian
> countries, singles which contain 4 songs (2 songs + their karaoke
> versions) are called just singles. Singles with more than 2 songs are
> called Maxi-Singles, apparently in West as well:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxi_single
> Adding these would help a lot to categorise properly asian releases
> (at least with Japanese ones). As an example, take a look at this
> discography page: http://awoi.jp/discography.html <— these guys
> classify their releases as Mini-Albums and Maxi-Singles a lot. With
> current primary types, I have to use EP and Single instead, which is
> not consistent with artist’s data.
> Thanks ^^;

The case for the Maxi-Single is a bit unclear for me at the moment; I
would recommend writing guidelines such that the maxi-single type is
only used for releases where it is explicitly marked.
I.e. people should not guess "maxi-single" rather than "single" just
because the single has more than 2 tracks - it should only be used when
the label/artist lists the release as a "maxi-single".

--
Calvin Walton <[hidden email]>


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Re: RFC: Missing primary types for Asian releases

swisschris
I agree with Calvin that this would need quite a bit of work on the terminology page, particularly in including the (different) use of the terms mini-album and EP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-LP ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_play) in European countries, particularly for vinyl releases. Otherwise we will get even more problems with these formats than we currently have. If I remember correctly we had a previous attempt to add additional formats which failed mainly because of the diverging use of these terms over time and over countries…


On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 6:25 PM, Calvin Walton <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, 2014-01-16 at 02:05 +0900, Mihai Spinei wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I made this ticket http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-282 in
> hopes to get 2 types I often find myself mis-categorising as EPs and
> Singles

First of all, before I +1 this, I would like to see what you plan to do
as documentation updates. In particular, you'll have to make changes to
this page:
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Release_Group/Type
To explain to people what each type is, and when it should be used.

(I normally do this by making a copy of the wiki page in my User
namespace and making changes there to show what the final page will look
like.)

> In Asia, particularly Japan and South Korea, CD albums which have up
> to 6 songs are called Mini-Albums, and 8+ songs - Full Albums. In
> iTunes Mini-Albums are set as EPs. For reference, the Japanese wiki
> has this entry for Mini-Albums: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%9F
> %E3%83%8B%E3%82%A2%E3%83%AB%E3%83%90%E3%83%A0

I am definitely for the addition of a Mini-Album type; I've come across
this a lot in Japanese editing.

> Also, singles are usually up to 2 songs. Sometimes, in Asian
> countries, singles which contain 4 songs (2 songs + their karaoke
> versions) are called just singles. Singles with more than 2 songs are
> called Maxi-Singles, apparently in West as well:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxi_single
> Adding these would help a lot to categorise properly asian releases
> (at least with Japanese ones). As an example, take a look at this
> discography page: http://awoi.jp/discography.html <— these guys
> classify their releases as Mini-Albums and Maxi-Singles a lot. With
> current primary types, I have to use EP and Single instead, which is
> not consistent with artist’s data.
> Thanks ^^;

The case for the Maxi-Single is a bit unclear for me at the moment; I
would recommend writing guidelines such that the maxi-single type is
only used for releases where it is explicitly marked.
I.e. people should not guess "maxi-single" rather than "single" just
because the single has more than 2 tracks - it should only be used when
the label/artist lists the release as a "maxi-single".

--
Calvin Walton <[hidden email]>


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Re: RFC: Missing primary types for Asian releases

Duke Yin
+1 for Mini Album, I've seen inconsistency on MB where "Album" and "EP" (and "Single", though often by mistake) get used for the mini-album type.

But as for iTunes:  an iTunes "EP" is actually used to indicate many more things than just EPs and mini albums.  They also include Japanese maxi singles:
A problem with getting "Maxi Single" is the current implementation of "types" of Release Groups.  If we do get a distinction between "Single" and "Maxi Single", suddenly a lot of releases (e.g. CD vs Digital Media) which are currently in the same release group should no longer be so, even if the release date, cover art, and title are the same and the track count difference is due to licensing for digital distribution or as an incentive to choose the physical version over the digital version of the "same" release.

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Re: RFC: Missing primary types for Asian releases

Mihai Spinei
on maxi-singles: I’d use the original naming present in the press release and/or written on the booklet as the source release group. digital releases often are called EPs when they were not such originally, so I’d just ignore that unless the digital release came first (like some bandcamp releases do). that’s how I see it

On Thursday, January 16, 2014 at 10:41, Duke Yin wrote:

+1 for Mini Album, I've seen inconsistency on MB where "Album" and "EP" (and "Single", though often by mistake) get used for the mini-album type.

But as for iTunes:  an iTunes "EP" is actually used to indicate many more things than just EPs and mini albums.  They also include Japanese maxi singles:
A problem with getting "Maxi Single" is the current implementation of "types" of Release Groups.  If we do get a distinction between "Single" and "Maxi Single", suddenly a lot of releases (e.g. CD vs Digital Media) which are currently in the same release group should no longer be so, even if the release date, cover art, and title are the same and the track count difference is due to licensing for digital distribution or as an incentive to choose the physical version over the digital version of the "same" release.
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Re: RFC: Missing primary types for Asian releases

jesus2099
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Mihai Spinei
+1 for *mini* album and *maxi* single !
i proposed a checkbox previoulsy
http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-STYLE-235-mini-album-td4656634.html 
http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/RFC-STYLE-236-maxi-single-td4656635.html
 PATATE12   jesus2099   GOLD MASTER KING   FAKE E-MAIL ADDRESS 
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Re: RFC: Missing primary types for Asian releases

drsaunde
In reply to this post by Mihai Spinei
Mihai Spinei wrote
Hi,  

In Asia, particularly Japan and South Korea, CD albums which have up to 6 songs are called Mini-Albums, and 8+ songs - Full Albums. In iTunes Mini-Albums are set as EPs. For reference, the Japanese wiki has this entry for Mini-Albums:
...
Also, singles are usually up to 2 songs. Sometimes, in Asian countries, singles which contain 4 songs (2 songs + their karaoke versions) are called just singles. Singles with more than 2 songs are called Maxi-Singles, apparently in West as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxi_single
Are these releases currently in the same release group with other releases that aren't Mini-albums or Maxi-Singles?

if so then I don't think we should be diluting our release group concepts due to regional termanology (like for example in Canada some cassette singles were called Cassingles (i know genius right) I wouldn't want regional termanology like that causing separate release groups for stuff that would otherwise be the same)

I'm not against adding something like this, but it should be at a release level and not release group

drsaunde
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Re: RFC: Missing primary types for Asian releases

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:23 AM, drsaunde <[hidden email]> wrote:
Mihai Spinei wrote
> Hi,
>
> In Asia, particularly Japan and South Korea, CD albums which have up to 6
> songs are called Mini-Albums, and 8+ songs - Full Albums. In iTunes
> Mini-Albums are set as EPs. For reference, the Japanese wiki has this
> entry for Mini-Albums:
> ...
> Also, singles are usually up to 2 songs. Sometimes, in Asian countries,
> singles which contain 4 songs (2 songs + their karaoke versions) are
> called just singles. Singles with more than 2 songs are called
> Maxi-Singles, apparently in West as well:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxi_single

Are these releases currently in the same release group with other releases
that aren't Mini-albums or Maxi-Singles?

if so then I don't think we should be diluting our release group concepts
due to regional termanology (like for example in Canada some cassette
singles were called Cassingles (i know genius right) I wouldn't want
regional termanology like that causing separate release groups for stuff
that would otherwise be the same)

I'm not against adding something like this, but it should be at a release
level and not release group

I think this isn't a problem with mini-albums. It probably is with maxi-singles though, that's certainly true - so adding mini-album only might be the best option.

--
Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren

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Re: RFC: Missing primary types for Asian releases

Mihai Spinei
I wonder if I should edit the ticket and remove the maxi single for there then send a RFV for mini-albums only. Perhaps making maxis a subtype of single would be better, since non-asian artists release singles and maxis with the same name so would be bad to categorise them separately.

On Saturday, January 18, 2014 at 19:14, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote:

On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:23 AM, drsaunde <[hidden email]> wrote:
Mihai Spinei wrote
> Hi,
>
> In Asia, particularly Japan and South Korea, CD albums which have up to 6
> songs are called Mini-Albums, and 8+ songs - Full Albums. In iTunes
> Mini-Albums are set as EPs. For reference, the Japanese wiki has this
> entry for Mini-Albums:
> ...
> Also, singles are usually up to 2 songs. Sometimes, in Asian countries,
> singles which contain 4 songs (2 songs + their karaoke versions) are
> called just singles. Singles with more than 2 songs are called
> Maxi-Singles, apparently in West as well:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxi_single

Are these releases currently in the same release group with other releases
that aren't Mini-albums or Maxi-Singles?

if so then I don't think we should be diluting our release group concepts
due to regional termanology (like for example in Canada some cassette
singles were called Cassingles (i know genius right) I wouldn't want
regional termanology like that causing separate release groups for stuff
that would otherwise be the same)

I'm not against adding something like this, but it should be at a release
level and not release group

I think this isn't a problem with mini-albums. It probably is with maxi-singles though, that's certainly true - so adding mini-album only might be the best option.

--
Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
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