RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

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RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

Mihai Spinei
Got a couple of +1s for mini-albums, so I'd suggest to add just them for now, will debate maxi-singles later. RFV

wiki: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:D4rkie/Release_Group/Type#Mini-Album

Expires of 2014-01-25

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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

Kuno Woudt
Hello,

On 01/22/2014 04:33 PM, Mihai Spinei wrote:
> Got a couple of +1s for mini-albums, so I'd suggest to add just them for
> now, will debate maxi-singles later. RFV

I'm not convinced difference between EP and mini-album is significant
enough to warrant this distinction in the database, so -1 from me.

If you get enough votes in favour though, I suggest the order on the
wiki page should be Album, Single, Mini-album, EP.  Or some other order
where mini-album and EP are next to each other.

-- Kuno / warp.


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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Kuno Woudt <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,

On 01/22/2014 04:33 PM, Mihai Spinei wrote:
> Got a couple of +1s for mini-albums, so I'd suggest to add just them for
> now, will debate maxi-singles later. RFV

I'm not convinced difference between EP and mini-album is significant
enough to warrant this distinction in the database

Well, given the definition for EP we have is "it is an EP if it claims to be an EP", the fact these don't claim to be EPs but mini-albums would sound like a significant enough difference.

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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

jesus2099
In reply to this post by Mihai Spinei
+1
 PATATE12   jesus2099   GOLD MASTER KING   FAKE E-MAIL ADDRESS 
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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

Alex Mauer
In reply to this post by Kuno Woudt
On 1/22/2014 10:03 AM, Kuno Woudt wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On 01/22/2014 04:33 PM, Mihai Spinei wrote:
>> Got a couple of +1s for mini-albums, so I'd suggest to add just them for
>> now, will debate maxi-singles later. RFV
>
> I'm not convinced difference between EP and mini-album is significant
> enough to warrant this distinction in the database, so -1 from me.

As this is an RFV: Is that opinion strong enough to warrant a veto?



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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

Kuno Woudt
Hello,

On 01/23/2014 02:05 AM, Alex Mauer wrote:

> On 1/22/2014 10:03 AM, Kuno Woudt wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> On 01/22/2014 04:33 PM, Mihai Spinei wrote:
>>> Got a couple of +1s for mini-albums, so I'd suggest to add just them for
>>> now, will debate maxi-singles later. RFV
>>
>> I'm not convinced difference between EP and mini-album is significant
>> enough to warrant this distinction in the database, so -1 from me.
>
> As this is an RFV: Is that opinion strong enough to warrant a veto?

No, that was just a -1.  Not a veto.

-- kuno / warp.


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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

Rachel Dwight
This is an RFV, so that may qualify as a veto.

On Jan 23, 2014, at 1:18 AM, Kuno Woudt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> On 01/23/2014 02:05 AM, Alex Mauer wrote:
>> On 1/22/2014 10:03 AM, Kuno Woudt wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> On 01/22/2014 04:33 PM, Mihai Spinei wrote:
>>>> Got a couple of +1s for mini-albums, so I'd suggest to add just them for
>>>> now, will debate maxi-singles later. RFV
>>>
>>> I'm not convinced difference between EP and mini-album is significant
>>> enough to warrant this distinction in the database, so -1 from me.
>>
>> As this is an RFV: Is that opinion strong enough to warrant a veto?
>
> No, that was just a -1.  Not a veto.
>
> -- kuno / warp.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-style mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style


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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

drsaunde
In reply to this post by Mihai Spinei
Mihai Spinei wrote
Got a couple of +1s for mini-albums, so I'd suggest to add just them for now, will debate maxi-singles later. RFV

ticket: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-282 
wiki: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:D4rkie/Release_Group/Type#Mini-Album

Expires of 2014-01-25
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-1 for me as well.  I asked a question whether these mini-albums weren`t also released in other countries using different termanology, and never received a response that addresses that.  Perhaps providing some examples as to what is a mini-album (which we haven`t been given) that could show this is more than just regional termanology

drsaunde
We shouldn`t be u
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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

lixobix
drsaunde wrote
Mihai Spinei wrote
Got a couple of +1s for mini-albums, so I'd suggest to add just them for now, will debate maxi-singles later. RFV

ticket: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-282 
wiki: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:D4rkie/Release_Group/Type#Mini-Album

Expires of 2014-01-25
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-1 for me as well.  I asked a question whether these mini-albums weren`t also released in other countries using different termanology, and never received a response that addresses that.  Perhaps providing some examples as to what is a mini-album (which we haven`t been given) that could show this is more than just regional termanology

drsaunde
We shouldn`t be u
+1 from me

Here are some examples of mini-albums:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur_(The_Clientele_album)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Airbag.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_on_Pilgrim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_a_Blood_Red_Sky

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-album

Obviously, not all releases will consistently called one or the other, but in cases such as the two above mini-album should be used.

I'd put something like this in the guidelines:

"A Mini-Album (or Mini-LP) is a release that is in between EP and Album in terms of number of tracks and length. The number of tracks is around 7-9, and the length varies from around 20-35 mins. There is no strict definition along these terms, as many EPs and Albums fit these criteria. What is important is that the artist or label consistently refers to the release as a Mini-Album. Where this is not the case, notably where Mini-Album and EP are used interchangeably, EP should be used."
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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

Kuno Woudt
Hi,

On 01/23/2014 07:07 PM, lixobix wrote:
> I'd put something like this in the guidelines:
>
> "A Mini-Album (or Mini-LP) is a release that is in between EP and Album in
> terms of number of tracks and length. The number of tracks is around 7-9,
> and the length varies from around 20-35 mins. There is no strict definition
> along these terms, as many EPs and Albums fit these criteria. What is
> important is that the artist or label consistently refers to the release as
> a Mini-Album. Where this is not the case, notably where Mini-Album and EP
> are used interchangeably, EP should be used."

I like this advice of which one to pick if the label/artist/etc.. aren't
clear about it.

-- kuno / warp.


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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

Mihai Spinei
Hi,
Thanks for that description lixobix, I edited it in into my wiki page ^^
 
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:D4rkie/Release_Group/Type#Mini-Album

On Friday, January 24, 2014 at 4:39, Kuno Woudt wrote:

Hi,

On 01/23/2014 07:07 PM, lixobix wrote:
I'd put something like this in the guidelines:

"A Mini-Album (or Mini-LP) is a release that is in between EP and Album in
terms of number of tracks and length. The number of tracks is around 7-9,
and the length varies from around 20-35 mins. There is no strict definition
along these terms, as many EPs and Albums fit these criteria. What is
important is that the artist or label consistently refers to the release as
a Mini-Album. Where this is not the case, notably where Mini-Album and EP
are used interchangeably, EP should be used."

I like this advice of which one to pick if the label/artist/etc.. aren't
clear about it.

-- kuno / warp.


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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

Mihai Spinei
I guess since the vote tally is two positive and two negative, this is in limbo/not passed?
Sorry, I’m new at making feature requests to MB...

On Friday, January 24, 2014 at 7:49, Mihai Spinei wrote:

Hi,
Thanks for that description lixobix, I edited it in into my wiki page ^^

On Friday, January 24, 2014 at 4:39, Kuno Woudt wrote:

Hi,

On 01/23/2014 07:07 PM, lixobix wrote:
I'd put something like this in the guidelines:

"A Mini-Album (or Mini-LP) is a release that is in between EP and Album in
terms of number of tracks and length. The number of tracks is around 7-9,
and the length varies from around 20-35 mins. There is no strict definition
along these terms, as many EPs and Albums fit these criteria. What is
important is that the artist or label consistently refers to the release as
a Mini-Album. Where this is not the case, notably where Mini-Album and EP
are used interchangeably, EP should be used."

I like this advice of which one to pick if the label/artist/etc.. aren't
clear about it.

-- kuno / warp.


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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 3:09 AM, Mihai Spinei <[hidden email]> wrote:
I guess since the vote tally is two positive and two negative, this is in limbo/not passed?

Not really - proposals pass if they're not vetoed. kuno specifically said he wasn't vetoing this - I'm not sure about drsaunde so let's wait a bit and see if he clarifies it :) 

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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

drsaunde
Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote
Not really - proposals pass if they're not vetoed. kuno specifically said
he wasn't vetoing this - I'm not sure about drsaunde so let's wait a bit
and see if he clarifies it :)
Don't proposals require at least a +1 from someone other than the proposer?  In this case that didn't happen as the minuses cancel out the plusses, so it should fail whether I veto or not.

If that's not the case then fine I will veto.  Based on the examples provided and the proposal, I cannot find any measurable difference between a mini-album and an EP, so I don't see why we need 2 categories for the same thing.

A possible solution would be to rename the "EP" category to "EP/Mini-Album" that would make more sense to me.

drsaunde
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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren


On 27 Jan 2014 20:39, "drsaunde" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote
> > Not really - proposals pass if they're not vetoed. kuno specifically said
> > he wasn't vetoing this - I'm not sure about drsaunde so let's wait a bit
> > and see if he clarifies it :)
>
> Don't proposals require at least a +1 from someone other than the proposer?
> In this case that didn't happen as the minuses cancel out the plusses, so it
> should fail whether I veto or not.

Yes, which this got in its RFC phase - this is an RFV and +1 / -1 here are pointless. It's only vetoed or it passes. Mind, the entire concept of "-1" isn't in the process at all and I have no idea where it came from...


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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

Kuno Woudt
In reply to this post by drsaunde
On 01/27/2014 07:39 PM, drsaunde wrote:
> Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote
>> Not really - proposals pass if they're not vetoed. kuno specifically said
>> he wasn't vetoing this - I'm not sure about drsaunde so let's wait a bit
>> and see if he clarifies it :)
>
> Don't proposals require at least a +1 from someone other than the proposer?
> In this case that didn't happen as the minuses cancel out the plusses, so it
> should fail whether I veto or not.

No, the style process isn't that rigid.

At the RFC stage we should discuss until there is a rough consensus, +1
and -1 can be used to express agreement or disagreement, but it's not
supposed to be an exact score.

At the RFV stage anyone who wasn't paying attention during the RFC phase
has a final chance to give their opinion.  If someone strongly disagrees
with the proposal they can veto it, which in my opinion requires the
word "veto" to appear in the body and/or subject of that e-mail --
because otherwise it isn't at all clear wtf is going on :D

-- Kuno / warp.

ref. http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposals


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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

lixobix
In reply to this post by drsaunde
drsaunde wrote
Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote
Not really - proposals pass if they're not vetoed. kuno specifically said
he wasn't vetoing this - I'm not sure about drsaunde so let's wait a bit
and see if he clarifies it :)
Based on the examples provided and the proposal, I cannot find any measurable difference between a mini-album and an EP, so I don't see why we need 2 categories for the same thing.
Well, what's the measurable difference between a single, EP, and album?

You can have a 42 minute, 8 track EP:

http://musicbrainz.org/release/95f94241-8568-4d6f-aeb1-3d8da18e5120

And you can have a 37 minute, 8 track album:

http://musicbrainz.org/release/d38d37ed-7da8-3105-bc4f-2e7661667126

The only difference is what the artist/label calls it. So how do you justify objecting on the basis of lack of a measurable difference? What measurable difference is there between single/EP/album that is lacking in relation to mini-album?
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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 10:41 PM, lixobix <[hidden email]> wrote:
drsaunde wrote
>
> Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote
>> Not really - proposals pass if they're not vetoed. kuno specifically said
>> he wasn't vetoing this - I'm not sure about drsaunde so let's wait a bit
>> and see if he clarifies it :)
> Based on the examples provided and the proposal, I cannot find any
> measurable difference between a mini-album and an EP, so I don't see why
> we need 2 categories for the same thing.

Well, what's the measurable difference between a single, EP, and album?

You can have a 42 minute, 8 track EP:

http://musicbrainz.org/release/95f94241-8568-4d6f-aeb1-3d8da18e5120

And you can have a 37 minute, 8 track album:

http://musicbrainz.org/release/d38d37ed-7da8-3105-bc4f-2e7661667126

The only difference is what the artist/label calls it. So how do you justify
objecting on the basis of lack of a measurable difference? What measurable
difference is there between single/EP/album that is lacking in relation to
mini-album?

That's pretty much my view of this too, yes. Given our definition of EP is "it's an EP if called an EP", something called "mini-album" isn't an EP. 

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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

drsaunde
Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote
> You can have a 42 minute, 8 track EP:
>
> http://musicbrainz.org/release/95f94241-8568-4d6f-aeb1-3d8da18e5120
>
> And you can have a 37 minute, 8 track album:
>
> http://musicbrainz.org/release/d38d37ed-7da8-3105-bc4f-2e7661667126
>
> The only difference is what the artist/label calls it. So how do you
> justify
> objecting on the basis of lack of a measurable difference? What measurable
> difference is there between single/EP/album that is lacking in relation to
> mini-album?
>

That's pretty much my view of this too, yes. Given our definition of EP is
"it's an EP if called an EP", something called "mini-album" isn't an EP.
What's the difference between Album, EP & Single?
These are common terms used in every music related site.  Do people really not know these differences?  
Sometimes artist will take what we would normally define one of these categories and calls it another one of the categories.
Artists are like that, they are "creative" and like to mess with us discographers concerned with order

These exceptions still don't impact our general definitions of what a single/EP/Album is

And what about those that are the same release but called Mini-Album in Japan and EP in North America
or
what about releases that meet our definition or are categorized elsewhere as and EP or mini-album, but aren't called either on the release...what do we call them then?

I still don't see any value to have 2 terms for the same thing.

drsaunde
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Re: RFV STYLE-282: add "mini-album" primary type

drsaunde
drsaunde wrote
And what about those that are the same release but called Mini-Album in Japan and EP in North America
or
what about releases that meet our definition or are categorized elsewhere as and EP or mini-album, but aren't called either on the release...what do we call them then?
drsaunde
or when they're called mini-album EPs?
http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=2221791
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