Remove honorary titles

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Remove honorary titles

David Gasaway
Hi,

I'd like to propose that we remove honorary titles from artist names,
i.e., "Sir Thomas Beecham" [1] should be simply "Thomas Beecham".
They are not really part of the artists' names, and should not apply
to times before the titles were bestowed.  ACs can be used to indicate
the title if they are featured on a release, of course.  I'd like to
see this added to Style/Artist.

[1] http://musicbrainz.org/artist/0e6ccc63-41cb-4903-8b7d-60846aca6d58


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Re: Remove honorary titles

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
Hi! 

It's fine to have discussion here, but please also add a style ticket :)

I personally don't mind it either way to have it or not as part of the name. One doubt I have is whether you see this also affecting other names like "X, King of Y" or "Alfred, Lord Tennyson", or it's only "Sir/Dame" that you have in mind.


On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 12:20 AM, David Gasaway <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

I'd like to propose that we remove honorary titles from artist names,
i.e., "Sir Thomas Beecham" [1] should be simply "Thomas Beecham".
They are not really part of the artists' names, and should not apply
to times before the titles were bestowed.  ACs can be used to indicate
the title if they are featured on a release, of course.  I'd like to
see this added to Style/Artist.

[1] http://musicbrainz.org/artist/0e6ccc63-41cb-4903-8b7d-60846aca6d58


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Re: Remove honorary titles

Trevor Downs
I'm generally in favor of a title only if a person makes it a point to use it.

Trevor Downs
Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 20, 2015, at 3:26 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi! 

It's fine to have discussion here, but please also add a style ticket :)

I personally don't mind it either way to have it or not as part of the name. One doubt I have is whether you see this also affecting other names like "X, King of Y" or "Alfred, Lord Tennyson", or it's only "Sir/Dame" that you have in mind.


On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 12:20 AM, David Gasaway <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

I'd like to propose that we remove honorary titles from artist names,
i.e., "Sir Thomas Beecham" [1] should be simply "Thomas Beecham".
They are not really part of the artists' names, and should not apply
to times before the titles were bestowed.  ACs can be used to indicate
the title if they are featured on a release, of course.  I'd like to
see this added to Style/Artist.

[1] http://musicbrainz.org/artist/0e6ccc63-41cb-4903-8b7d-60846aca6d58


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Re: Remove honorary titles

David Gasaway
In reply to this post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-487

On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> It's fine to have discussion here, but please also add a style ticket :)

You know, I started to create a ticket, but when none of the available
Components fit what I was proposing, I wasn't sure anymore if that was
the right thing to do. :)

http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-487

> I personally don't mind it either way to have it or not as part of the name.
> One doubt I have is whether you see this also affecting other names like "X,
> King of Y" or "Alfred, Lord Tennyson", or it's only "Sir/Dame" that you have
> in mind.

Well, "Sir" was the only example that came to mind, and probably the
only I've seen in use at MusicBrainz, but your other examples would
probably also fit my criteria.

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Re: Remove honorary titles

bflaminio
I agree with Trevor Downs. If an artist makes a point to include the title, and if the title is used on cover art, liner notes, and other artifacts of music production; then it's reasonable to include the title in the artist name.

So, including the "Sir" for Sir Thomas Beecham seems appropriate, but I wouldn't suggest "Sir Paul McCartney" be used.

These can be decided on a case-by-case basis.
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Re: Remove honorary titles

swisschris

On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 2:55 AM, bflaminio <[hidden email]> wrote:
I agree with Trevor Downs. If an artist makes a point to include the title,
and if the title is used on cover art, liner notes, and other artifacts of
music production; then it's reasonable to include the title in the artist
name.

So, including the "Sir" for Sir Thomas Beecham seems appropriate, but I
wouldn't suggest "Sir Paul McCartney" be used.

These can be decided on a case-by-case basis.



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Re: Remove honorary titles

David Gasaway
In reply to this post by bflaminio
On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 6:55 PM, bflaminio <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I agree with Trevor Downs. If an artist makes a point to include the title,
> and if the title is used on cover art, liner notes, and other artifacts of
> music production; then it's reasonable to include the title in the artist
> name.

Here is a release of mine that has only "Simon Rattle" on the cover,
but the current artist name is "Sir Simon Rattle".
http://musicbrainz.org/release/18b06ece-4115-40ac-9fc7-41ff6953a1cb/cover-art
Either way we do it, these inconsistencies are going to happen.  I
can't think of a reason why it's better to have this in the artist
name than in the ACs for the releases where it's used.  Is it an
offical part of the person's legal name or something like that?

> These can be decided on a case-by-case basis.

I'd rather see it codified, whichever way the decision goes.

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Re: Remove honorary titles

David Gasaway
In reply to this post by swisschris
On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 8:26 PM, SwissChris <[hidden email]> wrote:
> http://musicbrainz.org/edit/11528485

OK, so there's an example of where the title is not in the name even
though it appears on artwork, including this one:
http://musicbrainz.org/release/0b4fbcc2-18a3-47f5-83a7-c198ed36cb98
Unfortunately, that particular edit pre-dates ACs, so anybody that
voted on/debated that edit may have differing viewpoints on the
question today.

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Re: Remove honorary titles

Alexander VanValin
In reply to this post by David Gasaway

Does this really need a Style change?

from style/artist#name
"In most cases, it is the name as found on releases. If an artist uses multiple names, see the guideline for artists using multiple names"

From there, legal name alias and ACs handle every case I can think of.

Which form of the name to use for the artist-name field seems very case-by-case. Is the honorific used in credits? How often?

-----------

That said, it would be nice to update style/artist/with_multiple_names a bit. Some of it sounds very pre-NGS.

On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 3:20 PM, David Gasaway <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

I'd like to propose that we remove honorary titles from artist names,
i.e., "Sir Thomas Beecham" [1] should be simply "Thomas Beecham".
They are not really part of the artists' names, and should not apply
to times before the titles were bestowed.  ACs can be used to indicate
the title if they are featured on a release, of course.  I'd like to
see this added to Style/Artist.

[1] http://musicbrainz.org/artist/0e6ccc63-41cb-4903-8b7d-60846aca6d58



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Re: Remove honorary titles

Alexander VanValin
I should add, my real question is "what makes honorific titles a special case?"

In my mind, the artist-name is what the artist is commonly called. That could include nicknames, jr/sr/etc, military rank (real or not) or whatever.


On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 12:03 PM, Alexander VanValin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Does this really need a Style change?

from style/artist#name
"In most cases, it is the name as found on releases. If an artist uses multiple names, see the guideline for artists using multiple names"

From there, legal name alias and ACs handle every case I can think of.

Which form of the name to use for the artist-name field seems very case-by-case. Is the honorific used in credits? How often?

-----------

That said, it would be nice to update style/artist/with_multiple_names a bit. Some of it sounds very pre-NGS.




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Re: Remove honorary titles

David Gasaway
On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Alexander VanValin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I should add, my real question is "what makes honorific titles a special
> case?"

What is problematic for me is that the artist name will change after
the title is bestowed.  Then I end up with tags with distinct values.
YMMV.

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Re: Remove honorary titles

Alexander VanValin


On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 2:52 PM, David Gasaway <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Alexander VanValin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I should add, my real question is "what makes honorific titles a special
> case?"

What is problematic for me is that the artist name will change after
the title is bestowed.  Then I end up with tags with distinct values.
YMMV.


Well, right. The same thing might happen if e.g. an artist marries. Won't all minor name variations create the same problem? So, I'm not saying that it's a non-issue. I'm merely saying that it doesn't seem like a special case.

One of these years there'll be an MBID-aware music player. :-)



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Re: Remove honorary titles

David Gasaway
On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Alexander VanValin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well, right. The same thing might happen if e.g. an artist marries. Won't
> all minor name variations create the same problem? So, I'm not saying that
> it's a non-issue. I'm merely saying that it doesn't seem like a special
> case.

There are different solutions to these problems, like creating a
separate performance name that relates to a legal name.  Or using
Artist Credits to record name variations that appear on physical
releases.  I'm proposing the latter.  It's not really that special.

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Re: Remove honorary titles

"Frederik “Freso” S. Olesen"
In reply to this post by David Gasaway
Den 21-03-2015 kl. 22:52 skrev David Gasaway:
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Alexander VanValin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I should add, my real question is "what makes honorific titles a special
>> case?"
>
> What is problematic for me is that the artist name will change after
> the title is bestowed.  Then I end up with tags with distinct values.
> YMMV.

https://musicbrainz.org/artist/51823891-6035-4d6c-a007-b70a86747023/aliases

I say we keep things as they are. Some people are most known with "Sir"
or whatever, some people are not. Artist names can change for a
multitude of reasons, getting knighted is but one and I see no reason to
special case this over others.

FWIW, MusicBrainz Picard and beets are both able to "normalise" artist
names into whatever the current name in MB is, as well as being able to
use a locale specific alias if that is wanted. Either way, external
program behaviour should not dictate how we store data.

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MB:   https://musicbrainz.org/user/Freso
Wiki: https://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:Freso


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Re: Remove honorary titles

Per Starbäck
In reply to this post by Alexander VanValin
>> What is problematic for me is that the artist name will change after
>> the title is bestowed.  Then I end up with tags with distinct values.
>> YMMV.
>>
>
> Well, right. The same thing might happen if e.g. an artist marries. Won't
> all minor name variations create the same problem? So, I'm not saying that
> it's a non-issue. I'm merely saying that it doesn't seem like a special
> case.

I agree. The primary artist name in MBz does not at all have to be a
"legal name", but is and should continue to be how the person usually
is named (as artist), which may be with different kinds of titles,
nicknames, etc. For example royalty will include royal titles. As a
Swede I'm thinking of composer Prins Gustaf (Prince Gustav of Sweden
and Norway).

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Re: Remove honorary titles

monxton
In reply to this post by David Gasaway
On 21/03/2015 07:55, David Gasaway wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 6:55 PM, bflaminio <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I agree with Trevor Downs. If an artist makes a point to include the title,
>> and if the title is used on cover art, liner notes, and other artifacts of
>> music production; then it's reasonable to include the title in the artist
>> name.
>
> Here is a release of mine that has only "Simon Rattle" on the cover,
> but the current artist name is "Sir Simon Rattle".
> http://musicbrainz.org/release/18b06ece-4115-40ac-9fc7-41ff6953a1cb/cover-art
> Either way we do it, these inconsistencies are going to happen.  I
> can't think of a reason why it's better to have this in the artist
> name than in the ACs for the releases where it's used.  Is it an
> offical part of the person's legal name or something like that?
>
>> These can be decided on a case-by-case basis.
>
> I'd rather see it codified, whichever way the decision goes.
>
I'm late to the party as usual, but on the subject of Simon Rattle, I
did change his name a while back to eliminate the title from his primary
artist name, on the grounds that he didn't use it professionally. I'm
not sure if I realised at the time that an earlier edit by @mll had been
downvoted. See

http://musicbrainz.org/search/edits?auto_edit_filter=&order=desc&negation=0&combinator=and&conditions.0.field=artist&conditions.0.operator=%3D&conditions.0.name=Simon+Rattle&conditions.0.args.0=236231&conditions.0.user_id=360197&conditions.1.field=type&conditions.1.operator=%3D&conditions.1.args=2

Anyway, I agree that the choice of primary artist name can only be done
on a case-by-case basis. David Gasaway, if there are others where you
think the primary artist name is not the best choice, go ahead and
submit an artist edit to change it, and let the voters decide.



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Re: Remove honorary titles

monxton
On 27/04/2015 14:03, monxton wrote:

> I'm late to the party as usual, but on the subject of Simon Rattle, I
> did change his name a while back to eliminate the title from his primary
> artist name, on the grounds that he didn't use it professionally. I'm
> not sure if I realised at the time that an earlier edit by @mll had been
> downvoted. See
>
> http://musicbrainz.org/search/edits?auto_edit_filter=&order=desc&negation=0&combinator=and&conditions.0.field=artist&conditions.0.operator=%3D&conditions.0.name=Simon+Rattle&conditions.0.args.0=236231&conditions.0.user_id=360197&conditions.1.field=type&conditions.1.operator=%3D&conditions.1.args=2

Oh, I read that wrong :-/
The edit succeeded and was then reverted without comment ..


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