Wiki in Foreign Languages

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Wiki in Foreign Languages

Beth-2

I am stepping out into a field I can’t help with, but, it is seeming there is an increasing language barrier developing, and it’s causing yet more frustration with new users.

 

I would like to see what people think about doing some translations/transliteration on some of the main fundamental wiki pages.

 

Style guide, beginners guide, the basic how to documents, the “common” error types.

 

Part of this is watching albums going up in transliteration form, yet the wiki docs are the fundamentals of how to edit and begin to be an integral community member. Then watching a new user, trying very hard to grasp the style guide we ask, yet having a language barrier there to deal with.

 

I know many of you are not speaking your native tongue when you’re reading and speaking English, and I am not suggesting a full internationalilzation of musicbrainz, but I am hoping maybe we could get the main pages so people could read them in their native language.

 

What do others think?

 

Nyght aka Beth

 

(Don, hope this went to the right discussion group.)

 


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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages

keschte
> I know many of you are not speaking your native tongue when you're reading and speaking English, and I am not suggesting a full internationalilzation of musicbrainz, but I am hoping maybe we could get the main pages so people could read them in their native language.

generally, this is a great idea. i'm not sure though, if the  wiki
documents are ready for this step yet. may i ask where you noticed
such language barrier problems, was it in the edit notes? i think
until now, the documentation hasn't been linked from the main site
well enough. the next server release will probably improve on this
part, i'm not sure if its good enough yet.
   the point i try to make here, is that people who wheren't pointed
to the documentation (even more important: information which is useful
in the current context) have to know how a wiki works to get the
facts. I feel the international versions of the pages now made into
wikidocs still need more work, before translations should start.

--keschte

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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages

Nikki-12
In reply to this post by Beth-2
On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 04:36:47AM -0600, Beth wrote:
> I would like to see what people think about doing some
> translations/transliteration on some of the main fundamental wiki pages.
>  
> Style guide, beginners guide, the basic how to documents, the "common"
> error types.

I don't have a problem with it (I know *I* appreciate anything in English
when I'm browsing non-English sites ;)), although I'd prefer it if any
translations have a notice saying that they might not be the most recent
docs.

I have to wonder how it will work though. Wikipedia has completely separate
wikis for each language, but that would be complete overkill for us, I
guess. We can't just translate the page name because some languages will
share the same name. Subpages could work, I guess.

--Nikki

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RE: Wiki in Foreign Languages

Beth-2
In reply to this post by keschte


generally, this is a great idea. i'm not sure though, if the  wiki
documents are ready for this step yet. may i ask where you noticed
such language barrier problems, was it in the edit notes? i think
until now, the documentation hasn't been linked from the main site
well enough. the next server release will probably improve on this
part, i'm not sure if its good enough yet.
   the point i try to make here, is that people who wheren't pointed
to the documentation (even more important: information which is useful
in the current context) have to know how a wiki works to get the
facts. I feel the international versions of the pages now made into
wikidocs still need more work, before translations should start.

--keschte

[Nyght] I can see and appreciate that. Specifically it is with edits, why
you're voting no on something. Trying to explain why something is not
acceptable, and when referring to a link to style guide, it seems to help,
but not to the point the novice user doesn't get frustrated anyways. Mainly
things like feat, deleting your own mods. (I'm thinking of doing some
picture captures of that, if that's okay?)

I know I'm forgetting some of the major things. I'm not thinking very
clearly today. :([/nyght]


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RE: Wiki in Foreign Languages

Beth-2
In reply to this post by Nikki-12


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Nikki
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 6:07 AM
To: Discussions about the development of MusicBrainz for experienced users
Subject: Re: [mb-experts] Wiki in Foreign Languages

On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 04:36:47AM -0600, Beth wrote:
> I would like to see what people think about doing some
> translations/transliteration on some of the main fundamental wiki pages.
>  
> Style guide, beginners guide, the basic how to documents, the "common"
> error types.

I don't have a problem with it (I know *I* appreciate anything in English
when I'm browsing non-English sites ;)), although I'd prefer it if any
translations have a notice saying that they might not be the most recent
docs.

I have to wonder how it will work though. Wikipedia has completely separate
wikis for each language, but that would be complete overkill for us, I
guess. We can't just translate the page name because some languages will
share the same name. Subpages could work, I guess.

--Nikki

[Nyght] Unfortunately Nikki, I am really naïve on this one. Normally I offer
suggestions I can give a lot of helpful advice, or offer to do things with
the shift. This time I just see a need for something and am submitting it to
those who are by far more knowledgeable than I am in this arena, wiki as
well as other languages. I will be looking over my votes (If I can ever get
them to not give me a 502 error), to try and pinpoint better what seems to
be the most needed.[/Nyght]
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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages

keschte
i have taken the opportunity to test some things, hope the following
results make sense to you:
-----
*   from my POV, subpages would be the way to go. These pages wouldn't
have to intertwingled again, because the international version does
the job already. a downside to that approach is that a user cannot
browse the wiki in their language, because they see the international
version of the page first after navigating to a different page. having
a fully internationalized version would require a duplicate wiki, like
nikki said in her previous message.

* wikidocs supports child pages (of course none exist yet:
http://test.musicbrainz.org/doc/StyleGuideline/DE)

*   We'll have to create a way to list alternate langauge versions of
the page somewhere on top of the page, for example on:
http://test.musicbrainz.org/doc/StyleGuideline. This should work for
wikidocs, as well as the wiki.

*  i've added support for wiki syntax (the same way annotations
support wiki) to the moderation notes. its useful for adding links to
wikipages, one does not have to paste whole URLs, but only the name of
the page (if it is in camelcase) it seems however that currently,
links to child pages are not supported:
http://test.musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=3888778

-- keschte

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RE: Wiki in Foreign Languages

Beth-2
I think the child pages are working, I am getting that it doesn't exist on
the server from your link in email as well. It looks great! Seems like a way
to start trying to get some form of native language documentation.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Stefan Kestenholz
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 7:28 AM
To: Discussions about the development of MusicBrainz for experienced users
Subject: Re: [mb-experts] Wiki in Foreign Languages

i have taken the opportunity to test some things, hope the following
results make sense to you:
-----
*   from my POV, subpages would be the way to go. These pages wouldn't
have to intertwingled again, because the international version does
the job already. a downside to that approach is that a user cannot
browse the wiki in their language, because they see the international
version of the page first after navigating to a different page. having
a fully internationalized version would require a duplicate wiki, like
nikki said in her previous message.

* wikidocs supports child pages (of course none exist yet:
http://test.musicbrainz.org/doc/StyleGuideline/DE)

*   We'll have to create a way to list alternate langauge versions of
the page somewhere on top of the page, for example on:
http://test.musicbrainz.org/doc/StyleGuideline. This should work for
wikidocs, as well as the wiki.

*  i've added support for wiki syntax (the same way annotations
support wiki) to the moderation notes. its useful for adding links to
wikipages, one does not have to paste whole URLs, but only the name of
the page (if it is in camelcase) it seems however that currently,
links to child pages are not supported:
http://test.musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=3888778

-- keschte

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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages

Cristov Russell
In reply to this post by Beth-2
Is this live or in the next release?

Cristov (wolfsong)

--- [hidden email] wrote:

*  i've added support for wiki syntax (the same way annotations
support wiki) to the moderation notes. its useful for adding links to
wikipages, one does not have to paste whole URLs, but only the name of
the page (if it is in camelcase) it seems however that currently,
links to child pages are not supported:
http://test.musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=3888778

-- keschte

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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages

Nikki-12
In reply to this post by keschte
On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 03:27:41PM +0200, Stefan Kestenholz wrote:
> *   from my POV, subpages would be the way to go. These pages wouldn't
> have to intertwingled again, because the international version does the
> job already. a downside to that approach is that a user cannot browse the
> wiki in their language,

It would work if links were created to the subpages rather than the main
wiki page, but that would mean manually linking them. Personally I wish we
did that anyway.

--Nikki

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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages

Nikki-12
In reply to this post by Cristov Russell
On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 06:42:41AM -0700, Cristov Russell wrote:
> Is this live or in the next release?

Next release.

--Nikki

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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages

DonRedman
In reply to this post by keschte
On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:27:41 +0200, Stefan Kestenholz wrote:

> i have taken the opportunity to test some things, hope the following
> results make sense to you:
> -----
> *   from my POV, subpages would be the way to go.

MoinMoin has a pretty extensive support of different languages. see  
http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MultipleLanguagesSupport for details. This  
functionality should be used instead of a sub page hack.
Moin allows you to define the language of a page in a metadata field, to  
search these fields, and to specify which page is a translation of which.
It does not solve the problem of the same page name for different  
languages, but these should be few and IMO easy to solve.

E.g. MusicBrainzForum would be the same if translated to german word by  
word. however, by using Human Intellect (TM), you could figure out that  
KommunikationsForum is a much better name. :-)

Finally the Moin community itself uses different language pages in the  
same wiki. We should trust their experience.

   DonRedman

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Visit http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ the best MusicBrainz documentation  
around! :-)

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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages

Alexander Dupuy
Don Redman wrote:

> MoinMoin has a pretty extensive support of different languages. see  
> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MultipleLanguagesSupport for details.
> This  functionality should be used instead of a sub page hack.
> Moin allows you to define the language of a page in a metadata field,
> to  search these fields, and to specify which page is a translation of
> which.


I agree.  This may require some additional coding to work in the "right"
way for WikiDocs, but it's the superior solution.

> E.g. MusicBrainzForum would be the same if translated to german word
> by  word. however, by using Human Intellect (TM), you could figure out
> that  KommunikationsForum is a much better name. :-)


There are also some different needs for good WikiNames in different
languages.  For example, a good rule in English is to use the singular
form (MusicBrainzForum not MusicBrainzForums, even though there are
several) since it is easy to pluralize by adding 's' or 'es'.  In other
languages, the tradeoffs are different, and it may not make sense to
force things into singular.  Additionally, it may be desirable for some
languages to enforce a particular declension (nominative/dative/etc.)

@alex


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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages

Nikki-12
In reply to this post by DonRedman
On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 07:24:41PM +0200, Don Redman wrote:
> and to specify which page is a translation of which.

I couldn't find out how to do that. Where did you read about it? How is
it done?

--Nikki

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RE: Wiki in Foreign Languages

keschte
In reply to this post by DonRedman


> MoinMoin has a pretty extensive support of different languages. see  
> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MultipleLanguagesSupport for
> details. This  
> functionality should be used instead of a sub page hack.

This page does not make much sense for me, can you point the interested
readers to a wiki which uses this concept? As far as I understand Beths
idea, the translated pages would be an <<addition>> to the existing style
guidelines in the wiki, which are well structured and intertwingled.

If you start creating a new set of pages with new names, it is a superior
solution from a wiki POV, but the subpage hack (as you called it) would
serve the purpose just as well (The goal is not to re-create the
styleguidelines structure in new languages, but have the most important
documents available in other languages too (do you remember the concept of
release/track title needles on NadelnderBambus -- childpages would be a
similar approach...)

Another thing to consider is, that we could focus on implementing
multi-language support from the wikidocs POV, having a sophisticated wiki
navigation is less important, because as Beth suggested, these will be pages
(the SGL, edit types) which are wikidocsed anyway, and users who are pointed
towards the pages will not likely want to edit information, but study it.

I imagine that wikidocs would take the childpages with links that point to
the international pagenames, but if the linked page has a childpage in the
given language, it could be automatically link to the right language.
Wikidocs could be adapted to handle this without much coding if these
childpages would be added to the index as well. The translated versions
would use the international version of the name, e.g. PartNumberStyle
instead of TeilNummerStil or whatever the new pagename would be in your
suggested approach, but that will serve the purpose of helping  people talk
about the same StyleGuideline in any language, and will allow them to
understand each other even if the language barrier is still there.

--keschte


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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages

DonRedman
In reply to this post by Nikki-12
On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 21:57:12 +0200, Nikki wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 07:24:41PM +0200, Don Redman wrote:
>> and to specify which page is a translation of which.
>
> I couldn't find out how to do that. Where did you read about it? How is
> it done?

<http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MultipleLanguagesSupport#head-5bff0ecf77993d5b299619f187293c3542e7c68d>

But I suppose it is a 1.5 feature.

Robert: I know from my own experience that updating from moin 1.3.5  
upwards is *really* easy. Not at all the PITA that upgrading to 1.3.5 was.

   DonRedman



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around! :-)

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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages

Cristov Russell
In reply to this post by Beth-2
1.5.3 also adds classes for the TableOfContents macro which would help with fixing the rather ugly TOC listings we have now.

Cristov (wolfsong)

--- [hidden email] wrote:

From: "Don Redman" <[hidden email]>
To: "Discussions about the development of MusicBrainz for experienced users" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [mb-experts] Wiki in Foreign Languages
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 00:37:11 +0200

On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 21:57:12 +0200, Nikki wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 07:24:41PM +0200, Don Redman wrote:
>> and to specify which page is a translation of which.
>
> I couldn't find out how to do that. Where did you read about it? How is
> it done?

<http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MultipleLanguagesSupport#head-5bff0ecf77993d5b299619f187293c3542e7c68d>

But I suppose it is a 1.5 feature.

Robert: I know from my own experience that updating from moin 1.3.5  
upwards is *really* easy. Not at all the PITA that upgrading to 1.3.5 was.

   DonRedman



--
Words that are written in CamelCase refer to WikiPages:
Visit http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ the best MusicBrainz documentation  
around! :-)

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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages

Nikki-12
In reply to this post by DonRedman
On Thu, Jun 08, 2006 at 12:37:11AM +0200, Don Redman wrote:
> >>and to specify which page is a translation of which.
> >
> >I couldn't find out how to do that. Where did you read about it? How is
> >it done?
>
> <http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MultipleLanguagesSupport#head-5bff0ecf77993d5b299619f187293c3542e7c68d>

I still don't see how to specify which page is a translation of which. That
section is about the user interface language and MoinMoin already does
that. If I set my default browser language to Japanese, MoinMoin greets me
with the user interface in Japanese. The content, however, is still in
English.

--Nikki

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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages

DonRedman
In reply to this post by keschte
On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 22:51:01 +0200, Stefan Kestenholz wrote:

>> MoinMoin has a pretty extensive support of different languages. see
>> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MultipleLanguagesSupport for
>> details. This functionality should be used instead of a sub page hack.
>
> This page does not make much sense for me, can you point the interested
> readers to a wiki which uses this concept? As far as I understand Beths
> idea, the translated pages would be an <<addition>> to the existing style
> guidelines in the wiki, which are well structured and intertwingled.

Erm. MoinMoin is one. Wikipedia is another (using different techniques but  
the same concept). The point is that all big wiki communities I know of  
agree that a translation should not be an addition to a primary language,  
but should get the freedom of following the logic of its own language. It  
needs this to be *alive*.

"Alive" is no stupid metaphor, but _the_ essential concept of WikiNature  
IMVHO.

> Another thing to consider is, that we could focus on implementing
> multi-language support from the wikidocs POV, having a sophisticated wiki
> navigation is less important, because as Beth suggested, these will be  
> pages (the SGL, edit types) which are wikidocsed anyway, and users who
> are pointed towards the pages will not likely want to edit information,
> but study it.

This is not WikiDocs as I see it, and this is not the first time we seem  
to disagree on this. I maintain the point that a WikiDocsPage needs at  
first to be a living wiki page. Then you can wikidocsel the currently  
'stable' revision of it. If the page is not alive, then I do not want it  
to become a WikiDocsPage.

> I imagine that wikidocs would take the childpages with links that point  
> to the international pagenames, but if the linked page has a childpagein  
> the given language, it could be automatically link to the rightlanguage.

But you can do the same thing using the features Moin offers you: Lookup  
the metadata tag as you lookup redirects and you know the language. Scan  
the LanguageDict pages and you know which page is a translation of which.

   DonRedman



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RE: Wiki in Foreign Languages

Beth-2
In reply to this post by keschte
Keschte has the full of what I was suggesting... and I feel he summed it up
better than I could.

The reason I proposed a partial transliteration, while the full
documentation would be wonderful! There's a few concerns I see with it.

First, I personally can't help, therefore I wouldn't ask that of any one
person, or even two.

Second, if we present full documentation I feel it will melt over into the
database side of musicbrainz and people will begin to leave mod notes in
their native tongue, which I feel will ultimately hurt MB more than it will
help. This was ... more of an idea of a crutch. Something to let people
learn quickly with, in a native fashion, and take to their editing while
still realizing the main language MB works on is English. (even though more
than a good amount of the core people speak German, if I'm not mistaken.)

Nyght aka Beth

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Stefan Kestenholz
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 2:51 PM
To: 'Discussions about the development of MusicBrainz for experiencedusers'
Subject: RE: [mb-experts] Wiki in Foreign Languages



> MoinMoin has a pretty extensive support of different languages. see  
> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MultipleLanguagesSupport for
> details. This  
> functionality should be used instead of a sub page hack.

This page does not make much sense for me, can you point the interested
readers to a wiki which uses this concept? As far as I understand Beths
idea, the translated pages would be an <<addition>> to the existing style
guidelines in the wiki, which are well structured and intertwingled.

If you start creating a new set of pages with new names, it is a superior
solution from a wiki POV, but the subpage hack (as you called it) would
serve the purpose just as well (The goal is not to re-create the
styleguidelines structure in new languages, but have the most important
documents available in other languages too (do you remember the concept of
release/track title needles on NadelnderBambus -- childpages would be a
similar approach...)

Another thing to consider is, that we could focus on implementing
multi-language support from the wikidocs POV, having a sophisticated wiki
navigation is less important, because as Beth suggested, these will be pages
(the SGL, edit types) which are wikidocsed anyway, and users who are pointed
towards the pages will not likely want to edit information, but study it.

I imagine that wikidocs would take the childpages with links that point to
the international pagenames, but if the linked page has a childpage in the
given language, it could be automatically link to the right language.
Wikidocs could be adapted to handle this without much coding if these
childpages would be added to the index as well. The translated versions
would use the international version of the name, e.g. PartNumberStyle
instead of TeilNummerStil or whatever the new pagename would be in your
suggested approach, but that will serve the purpose of helping  people talk
about the same StyleGuideline in any language, and will allow them to
understand each other even if the language barrier is still there.

--keschte


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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages

keschte
even after announced in IRC that i won't discuss this further, i still
have to... it seems that after working with wikidocs, i care more
about it than to let such things go.

* You, even if you work on social engineering should know that
over-engineered might satisfy the one who creates them, but will
ultimately fail in user acceptance. i'm quite certain than maintaining
several structures would exactly be that - overengineered. we simply
have not enough volounteers to maintain several wiki structures. the
translation childnodes would be much easier to maintain. We could
appoint maintainers for the pages, which should subscribe to the
official page and update their version accordingly if the main one is
modified.

* Beth's second point of the previous mail goes into the same
direction than i stated: We want people to talk about PartNumberStyle,
because these english terms are well established and used in the edit
notes.

-- keschte

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