south park characters

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south park characters

dj empirical
i just posted a question to the forums, but i thought i'd mention it here too.

http://forums.musicbrainz.org/viewtopic.php?pid=521#p521

====
ok, i'm checking out the "chef aid" album:

http://musicbrainz.org/album/53907640-f … 80cb6.html

the character Chef has a couple credited tracks, even though he's just
a character.  i'm ok with that, but i noticed that the cd credits
"Come Sail Away" to Eric Cartman, but MB has Trey Parker, the voice,
as the artist.  Same with "Feel Like Makin' Love", also credited in MB
to Parker, but on the cd credited to the character Ned Gerblansky.

What are your thoughts?

I tried to view edits on the Cartman track, but the search timed out.
===

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--dj empirical--
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Re: south park characters

Aaron Cooper-2
On 11/15/06, dj empirical <[hidden email]> wrote:

> i just posted a question to the forums, but i thought i'd mention it here too.
>
> http://forums.musicbrainz.org/viewtopic.php?pid=521#p521
>
> ====
> ok, i'm checking out the "chef aid" album:
>
> http://musicbrainz.org/album/53907640-f … 80cb6.html
>
> the character Chef has a couple credited tracks, even though he's just
> a character.  i'm ok with that, but i noticed that the cd credits
> "Come Sail Away" to Eric Cartman, but MB has Trey Parker, the voice,
> as the artist.  Same with "Feel Like Makin' Love", also credited in MB
> to Parker, but on the cd credited to the character Ned Gerblansky.
>
> What are your thoughts?
>
> I tried to view edits on the Cartman track, but the search timed out.
> ===
>
> --
> --dj empirical--
> ---------
> http://quahogs-ent.com || http://www.myspace.com/djempirical
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/dj_empirical/
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>

IMO, the characters are their performing names for those tracks - I'd
like to see the character names used.
--
-Aaron

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No rant this time, but a question

SaxPoet
Many specials, like the VH1 "Save the Music" concert series and the
"Osbournes Christmas Special" have not been released to the public.  
However, there are bootlegged rips from TV broadcasts and radio shows.  
First let's assume that a NAT is perferred over a multi-track entry ...
maybe it is a single song from a radio interview.

When a duet is performed in such a circumstance, such as Joss Stone
pairing up with John Meyer to perform "Tell Me Something Good", each
giving relatively equal effort, neither is predominant ... what is the
preferred approach for 'artist - title'?

(a)  Two NATs:   John Meyer - Tell Me Something Good (feat. Joss Stone)
  AND   Joss Stone - Tell Me Something Good (feat. John Meyer)  

OR

(b)  A new artist and a single NAT:  John Meyer & Joss Stone - Tell Me
Something Good    (If so, is there a consistent way to decide who is
listed first?  The first one to utter a solo lyric?  John alphabetically
before Joss?   Meyer alphabetically before Stone?   Ladies first?   Age
before beauty?  The one listed first on the broadcast credits?  This
rule does not have to be logical, it just has to be applied consistently.)

OR

(c)  Both (a) and (b)

OR

(d) you fill in the blank:

Even if a multi-track entry is preferred because several music
performances were broadcast, the questions in (b) still apply.



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Re: south park characters

Blue Dream
In reply to this post by dj empirical
> On 11/15/06, dj empirical <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > i just posted a question to the forums, but i thought i'd mention
> it here too.
> >
> > http://forums.musicbrainz.org/viewtopic.php?pid=521#p521
> >
> > ====
> > ok, i'm checking out the "chef aid" album:
> >
> > http://musicbrainz.org/album/53907640-f … 80cb6.html
> >
> > the character Chef has a couple credited tracks, even though he's
> just
> > a character.  i'm ok with that, but i noticed that the cd credits
> > "Come Sail Away" to Eric Cartman, but MB has Trey Parker, the
> voice,
> > as the artist.  Same with "Feel Like Makin' Love", also credited in
> MB
> > to Parker, but on the cd credited to the character Ned Gerblansky.
> >
> > What are your thoughts?
> >
> > I tried to view edits on the Cartman track, but the search timed
> out.
> > ===
> >
> > --
> > --dj empirical--
> > ---------
> > http://quahogs-ent.com || http://www.myspace.com/djempirical
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/dj_empirical/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
> >
>
> IMO, the characters are their performing names for those tracks - I'd
> like to see the character names used.
> --
> -Aaron

If we do that, should we also then go back and character-ize the South
Park movie soundtrack[1]?  Or, is that a different case, in some way?
More interestingly, in my opinion:  if we use characters as performance
names, should we then change all of those ARs to be the performance
names?  I suppose it would technically correct, but still a bit of a
headtrip to see it say "has lead vocal performed by Eric Cartman"...

--BlueDream.

[1] http://musicbrainz.org/album/ba2581b2-233e-402b-83b1-3a8c928865bb.html


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Re: south park characters

dj empirical
On 11/15/06, Blue Dream <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If we do that, should we also then go back and character-ize the South
> Park movie soundtrack[1]?
>
> [1] http://musicbrainz.org/album/ba2581b2-233e-402b-83b1-3a8c928865bb.html

i would personally think so, but i dont have the soundtrack cd handy
to see how they're credited.

i know the Chef song was released as a single, which i'd say
contributes to his characterization.

--
--dj empirical--
---------
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/dj_empirical/

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Re: south park characters

Aaron Cooper-2
On 11/15/06, dj empirical <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11/15/06, Blue Dream <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > If we do that, should we also then go back and character-ize the South
> > Park movie soundtrack[1]?
> >
> > [1] http://musicbrainz.org/album/ba2581b2-233e-402b-83b1-3a8c928865bb.html
>
> i would personally think so, but i dont have the soundtrack cd handy
> to see how they're credited.
>
> i know the Chef song was released as a single, which i'd say
> contributes to his characterization.
>
> --
> --dj empirical--

I'd say let's go all out and update the OST, too.  And yea, I think it
makes sense to have Eric Cartman as a performance name for whoever
does his voice.  Does anyone disagree with that notion?

--
-Aaron

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Re: south park characters

Lauri Watts
On 11/16/06, Aaron Cooper <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11/15/06, dj empirical <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 11/15/06, Blue Dream <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > If we do that, should we also then go back and character-ize the South
> > > Park movie soundtrack[1]?
> > >
> > > [1] http://musicbrainz.org/album/ba2581b2-233e-402b-83b1-3a8c928865bb.html
> >
> > i would personally think so, but i dont have the soundtrack cd handy
> > to see how they're credited.
> >
> > i know the Chef song was released as a single, which i'd say
> > contributes to his characterization.
> >
> > --
> > --dj empirical-
>
> I'd say let's go all out and update the OST, too.  And yea, I think it
> makes sense to have Eric Cartman as a performance name for whoever
> does his voice.  Does anyone disagree with that notion?

I object.

Please consider what precedent you are setting, and explain why you
feel this particular album is different from say, all the DoCo albums
and singles released as if they were in character (and all currently
attributed to the performer).  Or all the Disney albums.  Or
everything else in the Database.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think you are being too hasty.
This is much bigger than just South Park, and has been a very
contentious issue over a long period of time.

It covers everything from all the voluminous Disney Soundtracks, Anime
Soundtracks, heck, pretty much any musical movie ever.

There are many cases in there where some of the songs were released
'by the characters' again  attributed to the composer, again to the
voice actor who performed the character in the movie, again to various
session or house musicians who perform the character in tv series, or
did the 'in the storyline' version of the song (it's common to get
someone very famous to re-record the song, and release it as a single,
but that version is only used in the credits of the movie, for
instance). And yet again, in various other countries, by other voice
actors and singers.

An easy example is Disney's Ariel soundtracks. Just in my kids own
CD's I could probably come up with four or five different
attributions, of which all but one "Sing-a-long with Ariel and
Flounder" (and I have no idea who is singing on that one, it's not
even in MB) are the _same recording_.

The current style guide says this kind of thing should be attributed
to composer.   Current practise in Anime soundtracks at least, is
moving to attribute things that aren't instrumental scores to the real
performer.  The only thing that is basically consistent across all
soundtracks is that this stuff is _not_ attributed ever to the
characters.  With the exception of widely spread releases where we
have no way to find this information out (the Smurfs, for instance.)
South Park clearly doesn't fall into that category, we know both who
wrote and who performed.

Regards,
--
Lauri Watts

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Re: south park characters

Alexander Dupuy-3
In reply to this post by dj empirical
Lauri Watts writes:
I object.

Please consider what precedent you are setting, and explain why you
feel this particular album is different from say, all the DoCo albums
and singles released as if they were in character (and all currently
attributed to the performer).  Or all the Disney albums.  Or
everything else in the Database.

I will second Lauri's objections.  While superficially, it may seem to make sense to have 'Cartman' or 'Chef' as a performance name, there are serious problems with that approach.  The biggest problem is that a character name is a role, one which may be filled by any number of different people.  As an example, take the performance name 'Mary Poppins' (from the movie and musical of the same name) - if we were to take this approach, we would need several artist entries for this performance name, for each of the different actual people who have recorded the songs that this character performs.  To disambiguate those artists, we would probably end up with entries that look like "Mary Poppins (Julie Andrews)" - at this point, it's unclear what benefit (if any) we have over just using the actual performer's name.

In the case of other performance names, there is one artist who uses that name, and in many cases retains certain legal rights to it.  It's unlikely that there will be another person than Uwe Schmidt who performs as Señor Coconut.  To return to South Park, while there may only be one person who has performed as 'Cartman' so far, there's no telling what will happen next season (and this isn't entirely theoretical, since Isaac Hayes ('Chef') quit the show after the Scientology episode). Although the resurrected Chef in a later episode has a distinct name ("Darth Chef") that might not be the case for other characters if their actual performers were to leave the show.

Another way of thinking about this that reveals problems with this approach is the question of covers.  What if some well-known artist were to perform these songs on another album (as covers)?  In what way would it not make sense to say that they were performing as 'Cartman' or 'Chef'?  If they aren't, why is that any different from the original performers?  (Apparently, Alanis Morissette covered Chef's song "Stinky Britches" - which does seem different than Isaac Hayes' performance in some way - so this may not be the most compelling argument in this case, but might be more so for other types of covering artists.)

While there are certainly some cases where it makes sense to have fictional artists as performance names (Gorillaz being perhaps the most famous example of this) I think that in general we need to be *very* cautious about this, and I would recommend that such fictional artists only be used when there is not only just one real person who "performs as" that artist, but very strong reasons to believe that there are unlikely to ever be any others who might fill that role in the future.  I would hesitate to require possession of legal rights to the performance name an explicit criteria, but it's certainly something to consider.  Another consideration is whether the fictional artist appears in other (non-musical, or at least not exclusively musical) creative works.

@alex


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Re: Re: south park characters

Lukáš Lalinský
Alex Dupuy  wrote / napísal(a):

> While there are certainly some cases where it makes sense to have
> fictional artists as performance names (Gorillaz being perhaps the most
> famous example of this) I think that in general we need to be *very*
> cautious about this, and I would recommend that such fictional artists
> only be used when there is not only just one real person who "performs
> as" that artist, but very strong reasons to believe that there are
> unlikely to ever be any others who might fill that role in the future.
> I would hesitate to require possession of legal rights to the
> performance name an explicit criteria, but it's certainly something to
> consider.  Another consideration is whether the fictional artist appears
> in other (non-musical, or at least not exclusively musical) creative works.

We should try not to make up our own world, in the first place. If the artist
want to be known as Chef from South Park, Bert from Sesame Street or Homer
Simpson, then we should respect it. We already do this for many other artists
who like to use different alias for every release, so why not here?

-Lukáš

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Re: Re: south park characters

Lauri Watts
On 11/16/06, Lukáš Lalinský <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Alex Dupuy  wrote / napísal(a):
> > While there are certainly some cases where it makes sense to have
> > fictional artists as performance names (Gorillaz being perhaps the most
> > famous example of this) I think that in general we need to be *very*
> > cautious about this, and I would recommend that such fictional artists
> > only be used when there is not only just one real person who "performs
> > as" that artist, but very strong reasons to believe that there are
> > unlikely to ever be any others who might fill that role in the future.
> > I would hesitate to require possession of legal rights to the
> > performance name an explicit criteria, but it's certainly something to
> > consider.  Another consideration is whether the fictional artist appears
> > in other (non-musical, or at least not exclusively musical) creative works.
>
> We should try not to make up our own world, in the first place. If the artist
> want to be known as Chef from South Park, Bert from Sesame Street or Homer
> Simpson, then we should respect it. We already do this for many other artists
> who like to use different alias for every release, so why not here?
>
> -Lukáš

We often don't, for characters, that aren't always performed by the same person.

At the very least, if it's decided to do this, it should be documented
(there is a place to document these:
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/FictitiousArtist )  It's also worth noting
that for nearly all the entries there, it's very difficult to figure
out who is actually performing on the tracks, something that clearly
isn't true for South Park (note also, Chef is in fact on that list
already).

I guess it boils down to this: Crediting soundtrack songs to the
character is not very useful for the majority of cases, when we have
better information available, and it seems to me it should be a last
resort, or for really good reasons.  I haven't seen any really
compelling reason why this one is especially worthy of special
treatment.

--
Regards,
Lauri Watts

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Re: Re: south park characters

dj empirical
On 11/16/06, Lauri Watts <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I guess it boils down to this: Crediting soundtrack songs to the
> character is not very useful for the majority of cases, when we have
> better information available, and it seems to me it should be a last
> resort, or for really good reasons.  I haven't seen any really
> compelling reason why this one is especially worthy of special
> treatment.

one thing, though, that separates South Park (and Spinal Tap and
Beavis & Butthead) from, say, a myriad of Disney characters is that
the performer is also the composer.  To me, this adds a lot of weight
to artist intent, that i think is missing from the scores of Disney
records.

Certainly, this isn't a clear line, either (The Muppet characters i
think are in between the above examples), but there won't really be
one unless we go to an extreme (all or none).

--
--dj empirical--
---------
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Re: Re: south park characters

Aaron Cooper-2
In reply to this post by Alexander Dupuy-3
On 11/16/06, Alex Dupuy <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  I will second Lauri's objections.  While superficially, it may seem to make
> sense to have 'Cartman' or 'Chef' as a performance name, there are serious
> problems with that approach.  The biggest problem is that a character name
> is a role, one which may be filled by any number of different people.  As an
> example, take the performance name 'Mary Poppins' (from the movie and
> musical of the same name) - if we were to take this approach, we would need
> several artist entries for this performance name, for each of the different
> actual people who have recorded the songs that this character performs.  To
> disambiguate those artists, we would probably end up with entries that look
> like "Mary Poppins (Julie Andrews)" - at this point, it's unclear what
> benefit (if any) we have over just using the actual performer's name.

Mary Poppins is one fictional character - not five.  We only need one
"Mary Poppins" MB artist because we can use this performance name for
all people who performed as the character Mary Poppins.

> Coconut.  To return to South Park, while there may only be one person who
> has performed as 'Cartman' so far, there's no telling what will happen next
> season (and this isn't entirely theoretical, since Isaac Hayes ('Chef') quit
> the show after the Scientology episode).

Again, "Cartman" is only one character - we wouldn't need multiple
entries for this fictional character if more people performed as this
South Park character.

When a music group loses their bass player and has a new person fill
that bass-playing role, we don't create a new MB group.  We say that
person was a member of the group from XXXX until YYYY.  I think would
do something similar for performing works under the name of a
character.

--
-Aaron

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Re: south park characters

Alexander Dupuy-3
In reply to this post by dj empirical
Aaron Cooper writes:

>Mary Poppins is one fictional character - not five.  We only need one
>"Mary Poppins" MB artist because we can use this performance name for
>all people who performed as the character Mary Poppins.


Having only one performance artist for all the actual people is even less useful - since now there's no way to represent *which* person (Julie Andrews [movie], Laura Michelle Kelly [2005 London cast], or Ashley Brown [2006 Broadway cast]) is the one singing a particular track of Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.  And how useful is it, really, to say that "Mary Poppins" is the performer of Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious?  This is something that is true of *all* performances of that song in any soundtrack album, and is an attribute of the song that is (in my opinion) better handled as a track annotation or something similar.


> When a music group loses their bass player and has a new person fill
> that bass-playing role, we don't create a new MB group. We say that
> person was a member of the group from XXXX until YYYY. I think would
> do something similar for performing works under the name of a character.


In the case of a group, this argument makes some sense, but we're not talking about a difference in some of the performers, we're talking about a complete replacement at one time (not a gradual replacement that changes only part of the members at any one time).

@alex



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Re: Re: south park characters

teknojnky

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Dupuy" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:33 AM
Subject: [mb-users] Re: south park characters


> Aaron Cooper writes:
>
>>Mary Poppins is one fictional character - not five.  We only need one
>>"Mary Poppins" MB artist because we can use this performance name for
>>all people who performed as the character Mary Poppins.
>
>
> Having only one performance artist for all the actual people is even less
> useful - since now there's no way to represent *which* person (Julie
> Andrews [movie], Laura Michelle Kelly [2005 London cast], or Ashley Brown
> [2006 Broadway cast]) is the one singing a particular track of
> Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.  And how useful is it, really, to say
> that "Mary Poppins" is the performer of
> Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious?  This is something that is true of
> *all* performances of that song in any soundtrack album, and is an
> attribute of the song that is (in my opinion) better handled as a track
> annotation or something similar.
>

It would be very easy to identify which person did the actual performance of
that character if it were presented as such:

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious - Mary Poppins (Julie Andrews)

Or alternatively:

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious - Julie Andrews (performed as Mary
Poppins)

I don't know if either is possible given the current database/schema, but
it's certainly possible to implement something like the above.

I prefer the first example btw.


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Re: Re: south park characters

Aaron Cooper-2
On 11/16/06, teknojnky <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alex Dupuy" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:33 AM
> Subject: [mb-users] Re: south park characters
>
>
> > Aaron Cooper writes:
> >
> >>Mary Poppins is one fictional character - not five.  We only need one
> >>"Mary Poppins" MB artist because we can use this performance name for
> >>all people who performed as the character Mary Poppins.
> >
> >
> > Having only one performance artist for all the actual people is even less
> > useful - since now there's no way to represent *which* person (Julie
> > Andrews [movie], Laura Michelle Kelly [2005 London cast], or Ashley Brown
> > [2006 Broadway cast]) is the one singing a particular track of
> > Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.  And how useful is it, really, to say
> > that "Mary Poppins" is the performer of
> > Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious?  This is something that is true of
> > *all* performances of that song in any soundtrack album, and is an
> > attribute of the song that is (in my opinion) better handled as a track
> > annotation or something similar.
> >
>
> It would be very easy to identify which person did the actual performance of
> that character if it were presented as such:
>
> Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious - Mary Poppins (Julie Andrews)
>
> Or alternatively:
>
> Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious - Julie Andrews (performed as Mary
> Poppins)
>
> I don't know if either is possible given the current database/schema, but
> it's certainly possible to implement something like the above.
>
> I prefer the first example btw.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>

What about an AR that says:
"[artist 1] performed [vocal|instrument|whatever else we have now] on [release|song] as [artist 2]"
"[release|song] has [vocals|instrument|whatever else we have now] performed by [artist 1] as [artist 2]"

eg. Julie Andrews performed vocals on "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious" as Mary Poppins
eg. Trey Parker performed vocals on "Come Sail Away" as Eric Cartman

We could then discuss who should be credited as the "artist" in the MB database.

Thoughts?
--
-Aaron

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Re: Re: south park characters

Kerensky97
In reply to this post by Aaron Cooper-2
Aaron Cooper wrote
Mary Poppins is one fictional character - not five.  We only need one
"Mary Poppins" MB artist because we can use this performance name for
all people who performed as the character Mary Poppins.
We do have the abililty to put in time frames so one "Mary Poppins" can be 5 differerent performers and even be divided between time frames:  
Julie Andrews performed as Mary Poppins from 1964-1971
Jane Doe performed as Mary Poppins from 1983-1984
Hoo L. Sss performed as Mary Poppins from 1984-1998
etc.
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Re: Re: south park characters

Kerensky97
In reply to this post by dj empirical
dj empirical wrote
On 11/16/06, Lauri Watts <krazykiwi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I guess it boils down to this: Crediting soundtrack songs to the
> character is not very useful for the majority of cases, when we have
> better information available, and it seems to me it should be a last
> resort, or for really good reasons.  I haven't seen any really
> compelling reason why this one is especially worthy of special
> treatment.

one thing, though, that separates South Park (and Spinal Tap and
Beavis & Butthead) from, say, a myriad of Disney characters is that
the performer is also the composer.  To me, this adds a lot of weight
to artist intent, that i think is missing from the scores of Disney
records.

Certainly, this isn't a clear line, either (The Muppet characters i
think are in between the above examples), but there won't really be
one unless we go to an extreme (all or none).
First off I prefer to default to how the CD credits the artist in most cases.  But to add another layer to the debate, how much is the performance of the character on the track worth?

If you've listened to "Come Sail Away" from Chef Aid, you know that Trey Parker is definately "performing as" Eric Cartman and not himself (artist intent?).  If you knew nothing of South Park and met Trey Parker on the street AND heard "Come Sail Away" you'd never draw the connection between the two.  Then come onto MB to see the song credited to him you'd think there was some error, the two are nothing alike.

It gets harder for other characters who aren't so different from their real life actor/voice talent/counter-parts but the idea is the same.  Perhaps if the CD doesn't define the artist or nobody can find the proof the standard should be if the artist is actively performing as somebody other than themselves rather than just singing the words sung by a charater in a movie?

Just trying to muddy an already complex issue.

-Kerensky97
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Re: Re: south park characters

Aaron Cooper-2
On 11/16/06, Kerensky97 <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> dj empirical wrote:
> >
> > On 11/16/06, Lauri Watts <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> I guess it boils down to this: Crediting soundtrack songs to the
> >> character is not very useful for the majority of cases, when we have
> >> better information available, and it seems to me it should be a last
> >> resort, or for really good reasons.  I haven't seen any really
> >> compelling reason why this one is especially worthy of special
> >> treatment.
> >
> > one thing, though, that separates South Park (and Spinal Tap and
> > Beavis & Butthead) from, say, a myriad of Disney characters is that
> > the performer is also the composer.  To me, this adds a lot of weight
> > to artist intent, that i think is missing from the scores of Disney
> > records.
> >
> > Certainly, this isn't a clear line, either (The Muppet characters i
> > think are in between the above examples), but there won't really be
> > one unless we go to an extreme (all or none).
> >
> First off I prefer to default to how the CD credits the artist in most
> cases.  But to add another layer to the debate, how much is the performance
> of the character on the track worth?
>
> If you've listened to "Come Sail Away" from Chef Aid, you know that Trey
> Parker is definately "performing as" Eric Cartman and not himself (artist
> intent?).  If you knew nothing of South Park and met Trey Parker on the
> street AND heard "Come Sail Away" you'd never draw the connection between
> the two.  Then come onto MB to see the song credited to him you'd think
> there was some error, the two are nothing alike.
>
> It gets harder for other characters who aren't so different from their real
> life actor/voice talent/counter-parts but the idea is the same.  Perhaps if
> the CD doesn't define the artist or nobody can find the proof the standard
> should be if the artist is actively performing as somebody other than
> themselves rather than just singing the words sung by a charater in a movie?
>
> Just trying to muddy an already complex issue.
>
> -Kerensky97
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/south-park-characters-tf2638373s2885.html#a7391145
> Sent from the Musicbrainz - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>

We're starting to travel into murky waters... who gets the MB-Artist
credit - the performer or composer?  Who *is* the performer - the
actual person of the character they play?

I think if a child had a Sesame St. CD, they wouldn't expect to see
Big Bird's song under the artist "John Doe" (whoever wrote
it/performed the vocals), they would expect to see "Big Bird".  I
agree with Kerensky9 - a real-life person and the character they play
in a movie/tv show/cartoon/play are totally different.  They have
different "histories", different "relationships", and (many times)
different physical appearances voices.

--
-Aaron

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Re: Re: south park characters

Thomas Tholén-3
In reply to this post by Kerensky97
We do have the abililty to put in time frames so one "Mary Poppins" can be 5
differerent performers and even be divided between time frames:
Julie Andrews performed as Mary Poppins from 1964-1971
Jane Doe performed as Mary Poppins from 1983-1984
Hoo L. Sss performed as Mary Poppins from 1984-1998
etc.

There can be several during the same time frame though, i.e. geographically different casts performing at the same time.

//[bnw]

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Re: south park characters

Alexander Dupuy-3
In reply to this post by dj empirical
Aaron Cooper writes:

>What about an AR that says:
>"[artist 1] performed [vocal|instrument|whatever else we have now] on
>[release|song] as [artist 2]"
>"[release|song] has [vocals|instrument|whatever else we have now] performed
>by [artist 1] as [artist 2]"
>
>eg. Julie Andrews performed vocals on
>"Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious" as Mary Poppins
>eg. Trey Parker performed vocals on "Come Sail Away" as Eric Cartman


I liked this idea enough to go to test.musicbrainz.org to set up the additional link attribute to implement this, when I realized that it won't work at all.  ARs are always between two entities (artists, releases, tracks).  You can have attributes (e.g. "lead" vocals, even "alto" vocals) but they come from a tree of link attributes with a fixed set of values (more can be added, but a few hundred is the practical limit).  There's no way to add a third entity (second artist) or a free text field for this.

What could be done, would be to have a new AR type, something like:

"[release|track] is performed in the role of the character of [artist]"
and
"[artist] is a character role that includes the performance of [release|track]"

For a solo, this kind of works.  With duets etcetera, it gets confusing, since there is no way to match the real artist to the corresponding character role.  And it opens the floodgates to literally thousands of "artists" that are actually character roles in musicals, movies, operas, anime, etcetera, etcetera.  And I'm not at all excited about that.

I think that this type of character information could be useful, but I'd prefer to have those as a separate "character" entity, not as artists.  At the very least, it should be a new artist type, i.e. Person|Group|Character.  But previous proposals to add new artist types (e.g. Projects) have foundered due to lack of agreement on how they would be used, and lack of developer interest in a somewhat marginal feature, so I don't know how likely  this would be to go anywhere.

Still, this is a more promising direction that fighting about which is more useful - we can grow the pie larger by allowing both performing artists and characters to be represented.  And who knows, after adding "Label" entity support, perhaps Lukas would be interested in adding "Character" entities as well.


> I think if a child had a Sesame St. CD, they wouldn't expect to see
> Big Bird's song under the artist "John Doe" (whoever wrote
> it/performed the vocals), they would expect to see "Big Bird". I agree
> with Kerensky9 - a real-life person and the character they play in a
> movie/tv show/cartoon/play are totally different. They have different
> "histories", different "relationships", and (many times) different
> physical appearances voices.


Of course, this comment could be applied to characters in operas as well.  But I doubt many classical fans will want to see "La Donna e Mobile" by "Don Giovanni" - they will want to know if it is Pavarotti or whoever.  There are plenty of different use cases - I'm sure we can come up with plenty on both sides.  The best way to solve this problem is to look at expanding it in another direction, and allowing people to solve their different preferences with the mythical future TaggerScript.

@alex



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